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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#371

Post by mjan22640 »

tzs wrote: post #229
xboxnolifes wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hearsay to go to the witness stand and say the defendant told you something. That defendant is there in court and is able to defend themselves.

Correction: it is in fact hearsay but it is admissible under one of numerous exceptions to the rule that hearsay is not admissible. Laws are generally clearer if you write them as general definitions and general rules and if those cover too much carve out exceptions in the rules rather than the definitions. It would work to make the exceptions to the definitions instead, or to both the definitions and rules, but that…

> Laws are generally clearer if you write them as general definitions and general rules and if those cover too much carve out exceptions in the rules rather than the definitions.

Similar motivation as exceptions for error handling

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#372

Post by arp242 »

slibhb wrote: post #174
kelthuzad wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sentencing a man to death when there is reasonable doubt of his guilt is a miscarriage of justice. "A crime scene covered with forensic evidence contained no link to Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams has been seeking to prove his innocence throughout the 23 years he has spent on Missouri’s death row. On August 11, 1998, Felicia Gayle, a former reporter for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was found stabbed to death in her home.…

It's pure speculation that the partial DNA profile recovered years after the murder came from the murderer. The police recovered the murdered woman's property from his car. How did it get there? Either it was an elaborate frame-up or a career criminal murdered a woman and stole her property. You (and The Innocence Project) apparently think that DNA must be found at the crime scene in order to convict. But is it the c…

It says "None of this forensic evidence matches Mr. Williams", which includes the "fingerprints, footprints, and hair".

I haven't looked at this case in great detail, but it seems a mistake to focus solely on the DNA.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#373

Post by kelnos »

seadan83 wrote: post #256
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction The Governor's counterargument being the "girlfriend never requested the reward for information about Ms. Gayle’s murder, despite claims that she was only interested in money" [1]. The interesting thing is I could see myself, were I on the jury, and if the other facts of the case aligned, finding W…

> But I can't reach the certainty I'd want for the death penalty There is a degree of certainty required for a conviction. It is up to the jury to only decide if that degree of certainty has been reached. It is up to the judge to determine the sentence. I make this point as the US justice system is set up explicitly so that the jury is not considering the sentencing, but only guilty or not guilty. This removes the ro…

In addition to what the sibling commenter said about extra approval, also consider that in many places the prospective jurors is told up-front that the death penalty is on the table, and jury candidates who are not ok with that are dismissed.

So I'd expect that if possible punishments weren't discussed beforehand, you'd end up with a jury that doesn't support the death penalty quite as much.

And in that jury you'd be more likely to find someone who might believe the defendant is guilty, but vote to acquit because they don't believe their crime merits death, but are pretty sure that that's what the sentence would end up being if convicted.

And in that jury you might even find someone who is opposed to the death penalty entirely, and vote to acquit for the same reasons.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#374

Post by ossyrial »

edanm wrote: post #369
istjohn wrote: post #250

If we aren't going to abolish the death penalty, we should at least require a higher standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt to carry it out. It should require incontrovertible proof. Circumstantial evidence should not be allowed. Expert testimony should be barred. The evidence must be conclusive, plain, and certain to every member of the jury. This would allow you to execute, e.g., mass shooters who give th…

> It should require incontrovertible proof. There's really no such thing. Instead, there is a very high burden of proof, there's a lot of protections built into the process, and, most important, it's an adversarial process in which one side is standing up for the defendant. If the evidence isn't good enough, the defendant's lawyer can and must show that to the jury, with them making the final decision on who is right…

> There's really no such thing.

Which, in my opinion, is a fantastic argument against the death penalty.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#375

Post by ekidd »

xapata wrote: post #335
diogenes_atx wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer. Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prose…

Isn't the jury responsible for determining what's reliable evidence?

Juries absolutely do make errors, including ones which result in innocent people being put to death.

In a number of cases, the Innocence Project has certainly managed to find hard DNA evidence that linked the actual murderer to the crime, resulting in saving people from death row. One of my friends worked on some of these cases. As former law enforcement, he was very much aware of the various ways the system can fail. Police officers commit perjury on the stand, "expert" witnesses use pseudoscience with zero factual evidence (there are processes to prevent this which have gotten slightly better), and there are shockingly terrible public defenders.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#376

Post by EnigmaFlare »

WheatMillington wrote: post #248
EnigmaFlare wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Every country has populations which are overrepresented in crime... did you really just say "They have less crime because they don't have blacks"?!?

Yes. That's what the statistics say. If you exclude shootings by blacks and Hispanics, America's gun killing rate is similar to high-gun-ownership western European countries.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#377

Post by edanm »

ossyrial wrote: post #374
edanm wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should require incontrovertible proof. There's really no such thing. Instead, there is a very high burden of proof, there's a lot of protections built into the process, and, most important, it's an adversarial process in which one side is standing up for the defendant. If the evidence isn't good enough, the defendant's lawyer can and must show that to the jury, with them making the final decision on who is right…

> There's really no such thing. Which, in my opinion, is a fantastic argument against the death penalty. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf

I completely agree. One of several reasons I'm against the death penalty.

Then again, it's not like I'm super happy about someone being in prison for their whole life, if they're innocent. But practically speaking, there needs to be some way to incarcerate people.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#378

Post by mandmandam »

Dalewyn wrote: post #346
redundantly wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This downplays the GOP’s role. Their decades-long plan, including stacking the courts, reveals just how hateful and ruthless they are in pursuing their agenda. While Democrats could have done more, obstacles like the filibuster and narrow majorities made passing protections difficult. The bigger issue is the GOP’s deliberate and depraved effort to strip away rights. Don’t give them a pass on it by blaming others.

Ruthless? Sure. Hateful? No. Kindly stop furthering the societal division in our country.

[flagged]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#379

Post by alistairSH »

ImJamal wrote: post #222
alistairSH wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not the way our justice system is supposed to work. We don’t require proof of innocence. We require (or are supposed to require) proof beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt. Possessing stolen goods should not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of murder.

He openly admitted to multiple people he killed her and had her property in his possession. Do you think that it was impossible to have burden of proof prior to DNA or something? Who admits to killing somebody while having their property in their possession if they didn't do it? The average person would probably accept just admitting it multiple times to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but adding on the possession of t…

He allegedly admitted. To paid snitches. Who were also known liars and criminals.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#380

Post by encoderer »

atoav wrote: post #336
analog31 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, you have to be OK with the death penalty, to be on a capital jury.

Of all the situations within which it would be morally okay to lie..

false.
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