Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 708 posts

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#371

Post by pyrale »

tiffanyh wrote: post #315
noirbot wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

That's exactly why I asked. If the government approached Apple, to offer them a special (specific to Apple) tax deal in exchange for X ... why is Apple now being held accountable for Ireland doings.

Because accepting a corruption bargain is as illegal as offering it.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#372

Post by pessimizer »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

> It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax.

It would be great if everybody just stopped committing crimes, or being rude even when legal, altogether.

But what are our alternatives other than just waiting for everyone to just do this? Also, how will everyone know how to just contact me to just find out when using the law to avoid taxes when you can is just evil, when it's just the smart thing to do, or when avoiding a tax is just justice, hard-fought and well-deserved?

It would also be just great if it were autumn all year, and if alcohol and sugar were just good for you.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#374

Post by joe_the_user »

Nasrudith wrote: post #322
skummetmaelk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much uncertainty for business really. If you're pulling the moves that Apple and other companies pull to "optimize tax", then you are with 100% certainty trying to game the system and violating the spirit of the law.

[flagged]

It is 100% untrue that "the spirit of the law" isn't factor in the US judicial system. The main way it enters explicitly is through courts taking into account the intent of the legislature. The most notable example of this was the way US courts interpreted the 14th amendment, which was far from it's literal statement.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#375

Post by pyrale »

dmitrygr wrote: post #356
noitpmeder wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably these laws are published publicly, and apple has more an enough resources to hire enough lawyers to ensure they are in compliance. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

five accountants will produce six results from the same input based on the same laws, all of which the IRS will accept. Laws are not code. They are not unambiguous and noncontradictory. And forget apple! This means that any company in existence now needs a lawyer who understands the Treaty of Lisbon! Just in case some EU country tells them to do X, they now need to know if said country can actually say so! I think yo…

> I think you underestimate the damage of "we cannot trust the actual government to tell us what we can and cannot do"

I wonder how these companies manage not to run afoul of US FCPA.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#376

Post by jandrewrogers »

returningfory2 wrote: post #369
itake wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its complex.. The USA has FEIE, (no federal taxes the first $120k/yr), but not all states (like Cali) honor that and may still charge you state income tax. and FEIE doesn't exempt you from self-employment taxes. and doesn't exempt non-earned income (dividends, etc.). Americans can come out ahead (if they earn less than $120k/yr and live in a 0% tax country). But a non-American (like Canadian) doing the samething, wou…

This isn’t the full story though, because there is also the foreign tax credit. If your US taxes are lower than your foreign taxes (which they will be if eg you live in Europe) you won’t pay US tax: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

There are myriad cases where this is not true, the details of how these tax credits are structured can lead to significantly adverse outcomes. It is quite possible to pay more taxes in aggregate than either country separately.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#377

Post by hartator »

jltsiren wrote: post #178
Aerroon wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe governments need to stop spending 40-50% of the entire GDP? For example, the US federal government + state governments spend about $10 trillion a year. The US has a GDP of about $25 trillion. And the US isn't exactly known as a high tax country. France is estimated to be at 58%...

Those numbers are not directly comparable. GDP is a measure of added value, not spending. Public sector spending may be ~50% of the GDP, but private sector spending is something like ~200%, making public sector ~20% of the total.

Interesting. I always think private spending is GDP - public spending.

Can you share where you get this numbers?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#379

Post by alibarber »

noirbot wrote: post #361
alibarber wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland cannot do that. That’s literally the whole point of the EU (or specifically a single market) Effectively - your hypothetical proposed ‘apple law’ would, at some point in the Irish law passing process, be found to be incompatible with their commitments to being in the EU, and I assume it would be then an unconstitutional law. The price of admittance to the EU is basically having this process and constitution.…

I mean, isn't that exactly the case here though? Ireland's law said they could do this. The EU says that's wrong, and Ireland is seemingly getting a reward for doing something illegal that the EU didn't decide was illegal for almost 30 years? Again, not disputing that this is legally accurate to how things work, but that definitely strikes me as an environment that a lot of businesses would find hard to work with. Ot…

Absolutely agree - it's messy.

Does it make the EU/Ireland a little less attractive to foreign investment? Maybe. Was it worth the gamble in the end for Apple and Ireland - probably.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#380

Post by geodel »

pessimizer wrote: post #372
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

> It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. It would be great if everybody just stopped committing crimes, or being rude even when legal, altogether. But what are our alternatives other than just waiting for everyone to just do this? Also, how will everyone know how to just contact me to just find out when using the law to avoid taxes when you can is just evil, when it's just the smart thing to…

Agree. I'd also like tobacco free / alcohol free zones to actually mean they are made available free of cost to visitors.
Post reply on HN