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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#371

Post by InDubioProRubio »

wruza wrote: post #336
maxbond wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

Since you seem to be one of those who denied(?) consciousness of a cat, how do you conceptualize it? Something like “a cat is just a large finite automaton and I am not”? How do you draw the line? Through “soul”? Through “neocortex thickness”? Why a cat would not experience its life like you do when e.g. drugged or seriously drunk? I mean, cats aren’t drunk, but isn’t it easy to experience or at least imagine the “an…

Ability to reflect non-heuristically on stimuli and not fall back into stress-reflex behaviour like schizophrenia. A animal that things god/the government/everyone is after them like a mice, is less concious then somebody able test that hypothesis and leave that fear filled fever dream. Its a scale though, and in my opinion, with considerable overlap, depending on situation and adaption.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#373

Post by prmoustache »

cupcakecommons wrote: post #159
timeon wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Easy example. As currently drunk person, I admit that my senses are impaired. But doubting my consciousness makes me doubt yours. Yes there can be scale of drunkness so is different scale of thinking. Idea that one mammal has unrelated thinking/sensing from other mammals does not makes sense.

I'm talking about being extremely drunk. I have a friend that "woke up" walking in a park after a night of drinking. If he was already walking exactly who woke up? My friend the human-animal was walking already. My friend the human-consciousness woke up. It was his consciousness coming back online as the ethanol was metabolized in the parts of his brain that afforded his consciousness.

There is an event that made me reconsider driving by night when sleep deprived.

I was driving back home after spending night at friend's place. It was around 4am, the whole family sleeping in the car. I didn't have any alcohol in my system because I always kept a 0 alcohol policy if I have to drive. I knew the trip well because I was driving it several times a months. A few km before reaching home I realized I had no recollection of having driven past a number of the usual landmarks. Yet I couldn't have possibly been completely asleep as the highway had a number of curves and I would have smashed the guardrails had I been totally unconscious.

So my theory was that I was so tired that my brain wasn't recording anything but I had been conscious enough to actually follow the road.

That was still frightening enough that the next time I just asked to bring inflatable mats and sleep at our friends living room before going home in the morning.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#374

Post by psychoslave »

lolinder wrote: post #126
slibhb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but in Hinduism and Buddhism, humans are higher than animals. In general, only humans are capable of escaping samsara.

Right, but that concept is itself very compatible with darwinian evolution. Humans are the current pinnacle of evolution when it comes to intelligence, but that doesn't mean everything else is entirely unintelligent.

When we are judge and party, it’s easier to come with the scoring scale that put ourself on the top of the board.

If intelligence definition is not imposed on us by nature itself, then we can only conclude that we are indeed great at producing evaluation scales that will flatter our egos. I guess many other animals are also very good at that game though.

If you take "survival of the fittest" (species, not individuals, should I recall?) as the criteria, then we measurably can’t bluster anymore. Many other species survived for far longer than we did, and maybe will outlast us after we finished to disturb so much the environment condition on which our lives depend.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#375

Post by paol »

brotchie wrote: post #160
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Consciousness and intelligence are orthogonal concepts. It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Intelligence is the ability to abstractly reason and adapt to novel stimulus. Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. Given we're all in the same evolutionary line, there nothing to make me believe that a Dog d…

If you enjoy fiction I urge you to read Blindsight by Peter Watts. One of the central concepts in the plot is "what if consciousness were unnecessary for intelligence"? Along the way it explores all sorts of angles on consciousness and cognition.

Still ranks as one of the best SF works I've read this century.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#376

Post by randomdata »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #275
randomdata wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other animals don't raise billions of other animals to cram them into factory farms Sure they do. For example, certain ants are known to keep livestock.

Ants don't go on insect hunts to hoard dead bodies.

Or write silly messages on an Internet forum.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#378

Post by throwitaway222 »

rogerclark wrote: post #240
maxbond wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

That first sentence is one of the best-distilled insights I've ever read on HN.

I saw your comment and had to re-read it. Damn insightful yes.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#379

Post by shinycode »

lolinder wrote: post #128
slibhb wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

My cat can’t comprehend code written on my screen and the world that is internet. Maybe other being exists and our notion of intelligence would collapse the same way a cat can’t possibly understand what internet is. Compared to them, would we be conscious beings ? Would they consider us conscious beings ?
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