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Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

tomverbeure.github.io

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Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#371
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems it's rather common that they're Internet connected when I look at some ads. Do you have an example? 30 min pauses? Why? I stop for five-ten minutes every four to five hours when I need to pee, and I can't rely on there being charging stations along the way.

At least all the Toyota and Mitsubishi electric prior to 2018 or so. And I did not even look up anything in particular, it's just well known that none of those had any kind of remote upgrade. I would advise you to do longer pauses when you are on such a long trip (not only me, the road safety specialists too). It's not for the bladder, it's for the fatigue, particularly of the central nervous system. The risk is not…

Could you name one in particular that has this range?

A six hour drive is "such a long trip"? You need to extend it to eight hours to make the road safety specialists happy?

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#372
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least all the Toyota and Mitsubishi electric prior to 2018 or so. And I did not even look up anything in particular, it's just well known that none of those had any kind of remote upgrade. I would advise you to do longer pauses when you are on such a long trip (not only me, the road safety specialists too). It's not for the bladder, it's for the fatigue, particularly of the central nervous system. The risk is not…

Could you name one in particular that has this range? A six hour drive is "such a long trip"? You need to extend it to eight hours to make the road safety specialists happy?

About road safety: Yes. Seriously lol please put a bit of your own energy in searching this.

And it's not "to make the specialists happy", it's to increase safety according to the knowledge accumulated thanks to such specialists.

(ok I see "neo-luddite" in your profile, but usually that does not entail "not trusting scientists/specialists")

You have a flesh brain like everybody else, with biological limitations that lead to fatigue and decreased attention after a long drive without sufficient pause.

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#373

FSD is worse than autopilot, and makes autopilot worse. When you enable FSD, it turns on the cabin camera and applies the same driver attention standard to autopilot. Autopilot is really good! But if FSD is on, it becomes next to useless. You actually have to look at the road all the time!

Well, don’t you have to look at the road all the time?

No!

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#374
post #367
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. I will only reply to your last paragraph: - EVs need to hardly ever break, so no brake dust and certainly not more than for ICEs. - Tires only wear faster if you accelerate like crazy. - Batteries likely last 20 years and afterwards another 30 years as energy storage devices. And then they can be recycled with 95% of the materials being reused. - And pollution is not the same as CO2 emissions which is what…

>Batteries likely last 20 years and afterwards another 30 years as energy storage devices. Out of curiosity, do you have a citation for 20 year old EV batteries being able to be repurposed for another 30 years? Assuming they are used for gridscale storage, 30 years could very easily be 10,000 charge-discharge cycles (thats slightly less than one per day). LFP batteries have a much longer lifespan that lithium ion, bu…

Your numbers are empirically wrong. If they were right my own LFP EV should have now lost 5%, but it hasn‘t.

One discharge cycle per day is utterly insane. Nobody does that. How many people drive 350 miles EVERY day for 30 years? 350 miles - that’s about one discharge cycle.

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "works in limited cases" is absolutely not enough, given what it promises. It drove into static objects a couple of times, killing people. Recent videos still show behavior like speeding through stop signs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGOo06xzCeU&t=990s Meaning that it's really not reliable enough to take your hands off the wheel. Waymo shows that it is possible, with today's technology, to do much much bette…

There are no FSD deaths. Only old Autopilot ones.

https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/tesla-worker-died-horrible-cr...

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#376
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pretty much exactly 180 degrees in the wrong in that one. Due to the deep NN-based approach, FSD can react to the minutest of changes like seeing ahead of the car in front, or even hand signals by pedestrians to decide how to drive. Again, even mentioning Waymo here proves you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. Might as well compare FSD to trains, trains also "steer themselves" lol

The hardest parts of self driving are related to interacting with others on the road - other cars, pedestrians, cyclists, animals, debris etc. Waymo has mostly solved these problems, in a real environment, with only some simple limitations in top speed (and a major limitation for climate - they don't work in heavy rain, fog, snow, etc). Sure, the environment is fully mapped out, so it's not easy to scale their soluti…

"Trains have solved the problems FSD is struggling with. They deal with junctions with automated signposts, and have a well established architecture of also avoiding train-to-train-crashes."

Your example just demonstrates my point. Waymo is not comparable because their "solution" is a dead end while FSD basically just works when being demonstrated in Europe and Asia even though it likely has like 0.1% or less of kilometers of having been driven there when comparing to US.

>it will crash

Just not true. Even ignoring that FSD can often go way longer without an intervention, remember, the "interventions" are extremely subjective and are just done when the driver becomes uncomfortable for reason or another. Many times likely the intervention just makes the car less safe in the situation, and the driver does it simply because they just had a different idea of how to fit a gap and were surprised by the car's plan. But the intervention logic is there to case for a ton of angles including legal and bug reporting / "feeling" safe instead of just purely _being_ safe.

>And NNs are inherently very noisy, so they are not a promising approach for a safety critical system

We're just replacing an NN with another one that is better. Replacing our transit system with something more mechanical akin to automatic train signaling systems (and getting rid of roads and cars!) isn't really in the books so blaming NN's is a moot point. Talking about LIDAR verifies that you don't actually have understanding of the history of FSD-like systems. LIDAR is easier for a beginner dev operation to start with but won't scale and is a fools errand given we already have the bloody reference of the previous control system working purely with vision!

FSD is the long term future and without comparison. Elon having been over optimistic about the timeline doesn't make it any less world-changing.

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#377
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A train can also run entirely automated but it is as valid a competitor to FSD as anything you have mentioned because FSD is general and works like a human. Video to inputs

Trains most certainly do not run automated, not on any long distance route anyway (there are some city trains/trams that do). And again, I'm comparing results. Waymo works autonomously quite well, even though geolocked to a city. Its going to be far easier for Waymo to take their existing mastery of traffic and extend that to less well mapped areas than it is going to be for Tesla to take their lack of mastery of any…

Your example about trains is actually incorrect, not just in that most trains are "basically" automated, but in that some (long-distance) have actually been for a long time.

>Its going to be far easier for Waymo to take their existing mastery of traffi

I'm going to stop you right there. The whole comparison is theoretical, and I just realized you don't even understand they are in entirely different markets and are trying to make a concrete point. FSD is for customers but Waymo isn't man. Good day

Re: Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo

#378
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it sort of works in limited cases. FSD is like ChatGPT, it works in many cases, it does some mistakes, but it is certainly not “useless”. It won’t replace full time humans yet (the same way that ChatGPT does not replace a developer) but can still work in some scenarios. To the investor, ChatGPT is sold as “AGI is just round the corner”.

But "works in limited cases" is absolutely not enough, given what it promises. It drove into static objects a couple of times, killing people. Recent videos still show behavior like speeding through stop signs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGOo06xzCeU&t=990s Meaning that it's really not reliable enough to take your hands off the wheel. Waymo shows that it is possible, with today's technology, to do much much bette…

The driving into static objects thing is horrible and unacceptable, I agree. As I understand, this occurred because Autopilot works by recognizing specific objects: vehicles, pedestrians, traffic cones - and avoiding those. So if an object isn't one of those things, or isn't recognized as one of those things, and the car thinks it's in a lane, it keeps going.

Yes, it was a stupid system and you are right to criticize it. And as a Tesla driver in a country that still only has that same Autopilot system and not FSD, I'm very aware of it.

But the current FSD is rebuilt from the ground up to be end-to-end neural, and they have the occupancy network now (which is damn impressive) giving a 3d map of occupied space, which should stop that problem occurring.

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