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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

371–380 of 448 posts

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#371
post #22

How's the Saudi ski resort coming?[1] That's part of the same project. That's supposed to be ready for the 2026 Winter Games. Google Earth shows roads, a perimeter fence, a water tower, and some buildings as of August 2023, so work is going on. [1] https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/trojena

I worked on the design of this a couple of years ago. One day we were tasked with working out how to freeze the lake over so that people could go ice skating on it.

There's a fractal insanity to the whole project. As you focus in on any one aspect, more silliness appears. The design process is driven by the Crown Prince pointing at 3D renders and saying he likes the one that looks the most cyberpunk.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are complicit (if not responsible). Accepted practice isn’t an excuse for indifference but criticising your own country isn’t a free pass to criticise the culture of others without challenging our culpability. If we sincerely want to help the citizens of these countries that we believe to be oppressed, we have options that we choose not to take. We could offer cultural asylum, give people a route to access our cul…

Was slavery-era America worse on the dimension of human rights or just different? Why does cultural relativism excuse horrors of actual modern people with access to and awareness of all modern thinking, modern technology, and modern examples of societies who achieved moral progress, but we’re perfectly comfortable saying slave owners of the past are responsible for their crimes despite being raised by slave owners in…

Do you berate your parents and grandparents each day for their participation in a society that had segregation? Do you walk over hot coals every morning to repent for the benefits you reap by virtue of being born into a society built on the backs of the segregated? Do you deride and express disgust at your peers as they relish in the taste of the pain and suffering of the billions of conscious, feeling animals we genocide every year? Do you opt-out of the industries and services today that take advantage of the suffering of less fortunate individuals forced to service you in order to survive?

Slavery was bad. Slavery is bad. Slavery is not excused. However, frothing at the mouth with rage when speaking about the actions of another society because they don’t share the same moral values as you without thinking a step further is hollow, it is empty, it is meaningless.

Why is “modern thinking” (whatever that means) good? Why is maximum individual freedom at the expense of the whole good? I am like you, I believe in that, but if you interact with people from different cultures, you will discover that is not a belief held by everyone. For many people, individual freedom at the expense of the whole is not good and they have observed that from these “modern” societies. Look at how deeply unhappy the U.S is, the pain and suffering of hundreds of millions of people. Is limiting access to healthcare an example of “modern thinking”?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#373
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the caveat that all published "plans" for the thing were probably meant as a PR stunt the plan called for passively cooling it[1]. That part actually doesn't seem implausible, it's right on the Red Sea, which is quite hot on the surface, but cools down as you you go deeper into it[2]. So (and this is just my speculation) they could have a large undersea pipeline to a depth of say 1km, and use the heat the buildi…

I love the way people describe what's basically a fantasy as though it could be implemented tomorrow. Do a Mars colony next.

If we were at a point where the Line was feasible in terms of engineering and economics, we probably would be almost to the point of being able to put a colony on Mars

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same way that water towers work - when the pumps are running (power is on), you pump water into the tower; then, when the pumps fail, gravity continues to provide water pressure as water drains from the tower. The water tower effectively acts as a "battery" in the system, storing energy (and water) and then releasing it as needed

But then the water won't be cool...

I didn't design the project, but I would imagine that moving water would be cooler than stagnant water. Other pre-industrial revolution pump designs like a hydram pump could keep cool water moving from the sea as well

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#375
post #218
post #214

The sheer arrogance of Westerners is one of the reasons I'm so biased against them and letting them enter any of the Muslim countries, like come on are we supposed to be taking lessons from people who gave us the Holocaust, the World wars, the Iraq war, the forceful displacement of Palestinians so they can create their own country. Are you people really that blind that you think whatever you think or values you have…

Just to add context, this is for the replies that I have seen on this thread for those people who are just assuming the worst of our people

While your comment had vitriol, it's not too different from most comments I see on the top of this page.

Bizarre

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#376
post #349

I think these projects mostly exist to funnel away / launder money, no one really thinks they will become reality. A multi-decade mega project is just a great way to divert large amounts of money without raising too much suspicion as there’s very little oversight of what’s really happening there.

What money would they need to launder? Isn’t most oil money just regular revenue in Aramco? Just curious, it wouldn’t surprise me but wasn’t sure.

my boss' guess was that it was to fund a nuclear weapons program but keep it hidden. or a climate change / fallout bunker for 1/3 of the kingdom.

like it's big, elaborate build outs, nothing delivered, and some sort of under the table deal nuclear with Trump's brother in law that got him a Billion. the Iranians have, or can rapidly enrich, and Israel is popping off again (and may have ~100 nukes), so Saudi has means, motive, opportunity.

infrastructure required to build silos, and infrastructure required to build the City Of The Future are going to look more or less the same for 3-4 years -- lots of big holes, running trenches, piping and power, etc. -- and after a few years they can call it a failure and quietly sweep it under the rug with the rationalization that it's been a failure and they're ashamed of it.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#377
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The above replies did not mention an ethnic group, rather a geographical area. The main ethnic group in that area is also very present in north Africa, and there is much less general "mistrust" (or negative feelings) towards that area than to the other. Not sure if "geographic discrimination" is in any way better than "racism" but using terms correctly is required for good communication.

The implication of using "632 CE" appears to be a reference to the proliferation of Islam after the death of Muhammad (I didn't know this until I Googled) So if that individuals distrust towards the Arabian peninsula begins in the exact year Islam began to spread, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that OP is an Islamaphobe (and it would include a number of North African countries as well) TLDR: OP is using geography…

I have a problem when governments decide it is perfectly alright to interfere in how citizens should conduct their religion or even what religion they should follow, which I believe is a deeply personal affair. I have a problem when there is no separation of state and religion, and when said governments regularly criminalise (up to capital punishment) things like apostasy and blasphemy, which are decidedly mediaeval attitudes.

It so happens that the large majority of these governments are in Muslim-majority countries, where Islam is the 'state religion' (I have a problem with 'state religions' too). Therefore, a reasonable conclusion: it is that particular religion that demands these of its adherents (and worse, non-adherents), and therefore, I mistrust it.

> a number of North African countries as well

For the record, I have little problem with Tunisia.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was slavery-era America worse on the dimension of human rights or just different? Why does cultural relativism excuse horrors of actual modern people with access to and awareness of all modern thinking, modern technology, and modern examples of societies who achieved moral progress, but we’re perfectly comfortable saying slave owners of the past are responsible for their crimes despite being raised by slave owners in…

Do you berate your parents and grandparents each day for their participation in a society that had segregation? Do you walk over hot coals every morning to repent for the benefits you reap by virtue of being born into a society built on the backs of the segregated? Do you deride and express disgust at your peers as they relish in the taste of the pain and suffering of the billions of conscious, feeling animals we gen…

Where is anyone proposing berating anyone? You can say that a segregated society was less good than a non-segregated one without saying that everyone who lives or lived in a segregated society is worthy of berating/disgust/derision etc. I don't blame individual Iranians for living in a culture that is worse on many important dimensions than western liberal cultures, but that doesn't prevent me from making a fair judgment that (at least on those dimensions) it is actually worse.

Modern thinking: things like pluralism and liberalism. These are actual ideas that emerged in the late 1800s and which are responsible for immense human thriving, immense liberation from suffering all over the world. Upstream of all political and social reform is an intellectual reform, i.e. new "thinking." I am not referring to "maximum individual freedom," and in fact this idea is fundamentally in tension with pluralism and liberalism. Maximum individual freedom at the expense of the whole is a bad idea because it yields bad outcomes, just like various forms of theocracy are bad ideas because they yield bad outcomes.

The ideas that yield expanded suffrage, expanded legal protections, expanded access to prosperity are good ideas because they produce good outcomes. Yes sure, the US/the west broadly isn't perfect, etc, but note that we can discuss all the ways in which it's broken so we can get to work fixing it. That's a good outcome and it's a critical part of the path to more good outcomes on more important dimensions.

You're not arguing that other forms get to better outcomes or whatever, you're just arguing that there's no such thing as good or bad outcomes and therefore no such thing as good or bad ideas.

Try going to Qatar or Iran and asking someone for their opinion on their heads of state. I think you'll find their reaction far more chilling than the fact that our health insurance system is broken.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#379
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm really struggling to understand why a linear city is appealing. I suppose if you set a hard limit of one train line in your city, then building it along that train line might make sense. You'd spend a lot of time on that one train line though - and I imagine in the central bits it would get really really busy as people are trying to get to the other end. And what happens if that train line breaks? Making a…

A linear city gives you more opportunities for expansion. A disc one needs to be planned well from the start, but it's difficult to account for future needs.

I don’t understand how this can possibly be true. You have one only degree of freedom in a straight line. Most cities develop a natural disc pattern because it allows for expansion at every degree.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#380
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your second paragraph especially interesting, do you have a source (e.g. a book) to get deeper into this?

Been a while since I last had a run through books about this and no time at the moment to go remind myself about titles, but I can give some links to start digging. Main export of Israel: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/diamonds/repo... Local presentation of mining sites: https://en.israelidiamond.co.il/wikidiamond/diamond-mining-m... Some historical background and interesting sources: https://en.wikip…

Thanks for taking the time to reply, really interesting stuff.
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