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Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

quantamagazine.org

371–380 of 591 posts

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the proton has the same charge in absolute value as the electron is just a consequence of the fact that the 8 elementary particles at the lowest energy level, i.e. electron and its neutrino, the 3 up quarks and the 3 down quarks have charges that sum to zero in a 3-dimensional charge space. These 8 particles and their 8 antiparticles are located in the corners of 2 cubes of unit edge in that 3-dimension…

Can you please link to a picture of the 2 cubes? Is this image another visualization of the same thing?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_Model.svg We know that the electric charge is not fundamental, but a projection of the weak isospin and hypercharge after the Higgs field symmetry breaking. How are weak isospin and hypercharge related to the 2 cubes?

No, that figure is not it.

I do not remember now where to find a suitable figure, but these are the coordinates of the corners of the 2 cubes:

neutrino & antineutrino: (0,0,0)

electron: (-1,-1,-1)

positron: (1,1,1)

down quarks: (-1,0,0), (0,-1,0), (0,0,-1)

down antiquarks: (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1)

up quarks: (1,1,0), (1,0,1), (0,1,1)

up antiquarks: (-1,-1,0), (-1,0,-1), (0,-1,-1)

The particle-antiparticle pairs have an inversion symmetry over the origin.

The quark triplets have a rotational symmetry of order 3 around the principal diagonal of the cubes that passes through the origin.

The weak isospin and the hypercharge are an alternative equivalent expression of the charges, but I prefer this picture as it is easier to understand and visualize. It also demonstrates the quantized nature of the charges that determine the strong and electromagnetic interactions, and that they are based on the same quantum, so they are not independent interactions. The also quantized spin must be added as a fourth value, to completely determine the weak interactions too.

The various sets of values that can be taken as charges are related by bijections (one-to-one correspondences), so which are taken as fundamental is a matter of convention.

In any case the chromodynamics is useful only for providing qualitative insights and for distinguishing things that are possible from those that are impossible. It is completely useless for computing quantities that are useful in practice.

As it is also obvious in the parent article, it is still impossible to compute the mass and the magnetic moment of the proton, much less for any more complex nuclei or hadrons.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#372
post #363
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reading this as "it has to be this way, or the model does not hold", but it does not explain why. What causes it? Consistency of a model cannot be the ultimate reason, right?

Isn't the primary experimental argument beta decay from that link? A nucleus can emit a positron, and observably loses nuclear charge equal to one positive electron. So by a pretty simple inferrence you could conclude the proton has a positive in it, hence the charge (it of course isn't literally like this for other reasons though). And since we also observe antiprotons, the opposite can clearly apply.

So a proton can emit a positron. Does that mean that the positron is somehow "part" of the proton? Does it mean that their wave functions interact in some specific way? Is there another reason?

Quantum physics has always bothered me, personally, since I find it difficult to understand reasons. Not philosophical reasons, I am fine with axioms and foundations to models, but rather intuitive reasons why it works a certain way. I know it is an extremely strong theory which makes unexpected, later confirmed, predictions, but there is a frustration that the only explanation to things is "math".

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still does not explain "why"

"Why" is more of a philosophy question, pre-scientific or a-scientific if you like. Science question would be "How". Maybe not this particular Q, but having in mind that on every A-answer, one can again ask Q-question "Why". That's more philosophy not so much science, imo.

I don't think it explains "How" either, in this case.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AKA the "anthropic principle."

AKA “God did it” with a sciencey sounding name. An answer which explains nothing, predicts nothing, satisfies no curiosity, and closes the book on any further questions.

the anthropic principle is why we find ourselves in such an unlikely place (a habitable planet) instead of somewhere that can’t support life. it’s not an argument for god.

it’s not entirely trivial. if someone says “god did it” because we find ourselves on earth not mars the anthropic principle is a better explanation.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#375
post #331

“The proton is a quantum mechanical object that exists as a haze of probabilities until an experiment forces it to take a concrete form.” I’m getting really tired of hazy probability distributions and waves that only collapse and materialize when observed. I 100% accept that QM is a useful tool to model our current understanding based on increasingly sophisticated observations, but I fundamentally don’t believe that…

I get what you mean, but still I'd rather accept probabilistic particles than the 11-dimensional bull that is string theory.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#376
post #322
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Recall the statement I was responding to: > it requires faith to assert that the universe did not have its origin from some intelligent supernatural being That is false. It does not require faith to assert this, any more than it requires faith to assert that the tooth fairy does not exist, simply because neither the tooth fairy nor ID have any supporting evidence. Actually, the tooth fairy does have some supporti…

I agree with you, which means I think we're talking at cross purposes and/or your replied to the wrong person.

Well, I was responding to "you're equivocating on the word faith" [1]. I don't believe I was.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39377297

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#377
post #69
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubt quantum physicists know what they are talking about but...I always think it is the kind of excuse a schoolkid would give their teachers for their calculations being wrong. Just to emphasize how extreme this dichotomy is, not only is quantum mechanics correct (in that it's a predictive model), it's the most correct physical theory humans have ever devised in that the measurements there have more sign…

It's interesting that semiconductor engineers have to directly wrestle with the magic that's quantum tunneling. This theory is really not just a theory.

We used fire in our daily lives even before organic chemistry existed.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#378
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on what you mean by "an accurate understanding of reality." One can observe empirically that the scientific method converges towards something which enables you to predict the outcomes of experiments more and more accurately is it converges. Whether you want to call that "an accurate understanding of reality" is a terminological quibble, but it seems like an apt label to me.

Note that I'm not arguing against the scientific method, but I'm arguing against your claim that it alone can deliver an accurate understanding of reality outside of what we can experiment and observe. This is your parent response: " You are objectively wrong. It requires no faith. There is simply no evidence for an intelligent being at the root of creation, no data that cannot be explained with much simpler mechanis…

Those aren't predictions. Predictions are about things that are still in the future. The BB was in the past.

But that is neither here nor there. "The big bang was created by God" has exactly the same epistemological status as "The big bang was created by Vishnu" or "The big bang was created by Cthulhu" or "The big bang was created by the tooth fairy". The evidence for each of those is exactly the same, i.e. there is none.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly dislike PBS Space Time, but I find it hard to explain why. I might also be just too dumb to get it. It's just the feeling of the goal not being the "listener gaining understanding", but rather "expressing how confusing and complicated it is".

The channel is definitely not targeted for the lay person. A counter example, Derek from Veritasium, he did a phd in physics education and it shows. Some of his videos are complex in content, but dumbed down so most people can understand. I enjoy PBS space time and listening to Matt O’Dowd, but I understand at the most 20-40% of what is covered on the videos. It is frustrating because I like the topics being discusse…

I'm not convinced. When he talks about things I understand, he does so in a way that I still find frustratingly convoluted. In these cases, it's not for a lack of education. It probably just means that this style of presenting topics just isn't for me, which is completely fine. Diversity in free education is great and commendable.

But I think you touch on the part that I think is the reason why. Because PBS tries to dumb things down, but instead of doing it like Derek does, which adds clarity, PBS does it by "mystifying" it. Probably tickles someone's itch, but I find it annoying.

Take the video posted, for example. It starts out immediately with thumbnail "Life = Multiverse?". If it really was for the niche audience, that title is remarkably dumb, although understandable for the same reasons clickbait titles work. Perhaps PBS meant to present the question whether one leads to or suggests the other? "Life ⇝ Multiverse?" would better express that. Though, the thought process of how multiverse and the anthropic principle go together is: "Multiverse ⇝ Life?".

The video starts out by expressing three statements, related to the Anthropic Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle). Had they instead worded those statements as to be correct, it would be a very nice way of introducing the topic.

This is how it is presented:

"Life exists in our universe" ⇝ "Our universe is capable of producing and sustaining life". Which is fine. We understand what producing and sustaining life is, because it is really just the first statement with some added anthropomorphism.

The next one, which is the whole point of the "hook" for the video, and is probably intended to be a little bit cheeky, except that he keeps a straight face, so, unless you know enough, it'll probably just misinform you.

"Okay. Let's try one final uncontroversial statement. Therefore, there are countless universes".

Well, no. Multiverse theory is one way to explain the unlikeliness of the physical constants working out the way they "conveniently" do in our universe. But this logical inference is not an "uncontroversial statement". It doesn't qualify, yet it is dumbed down to suggest it does. I'm sure that the following "Hm", and look to the side, is meant to express this. What do I know. But I'm not particularly amused or impressed.

So, so far, we've seen the thumbnail, and the first three sentences before the intro video rolls. And, it's been 1. Inaccurate information in thumbnail, 2. incorrect logical inference 3. false conclusion.

I can probably continue the video, but this is why I dislike PBS so much. It doesn't really try to dumb things down. It just IMO, fails to communicate science well.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’

#380

Is it possible the universe is infinitely complex? i.e, "turtles all the way down?". I find the concept of duality and replication in physics very interesting. Everything seems to have an opposite, with properties such that when these opposites come together, they form a bigger unit, which itself has an opposite.

When I was a curious kid, I asked my father the opposite: what if there is one fundamental physical rule that forbids us to know everything about the universe?

Something that we will continuously bump against without being able to resolve further, by definition.

Is there such a thing as Gödel's incompleteness theorems in physics?

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