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A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

quantamagazine.org

371–378 of 378 posts

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#371

Fields aren't quantised, that's the problem , that's why gravity can't be quantized. It's a field! Immediately, dozens of people are about hit the reply button and say something like: "But all of modern physics is based on quantization!" or something to that effect. The issue is that there's two ways to think of quantization, and for almost all practical experiments, there's no way to distinguish between the two. Ess…

> Essentially, you can think of either the fields being quantized, or the interactions with fields being quantized. Unfortunately almost all experiments measure only interactions with fields, so there's few practical ways to distinguish between the two. The mathematics is largely equivalent as well, so physicists "picked one" of the two options, and forgot about the other, equally valid option.

That's basically what Quantum Field Theory is though. Fundamentally everything is treated as a field, and we focus on the nature of interactions within that field, which results in particle-like behavior.

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a uniform gravity field it is essential that the cat is spherical.

All black holes I've run into are cat-shaped, yet they have uniform gravity fields around them.

That's strong evidence that these are spherical cats. I take it that you are unaware that cats creating a non-uniform gravity field will deviate from their normal spherical state. For instance, cats on planet earth will have all kinds of non-spherical bits sticking out and this in turn gives rise to our distinct and non-uniform gravitational field.

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogma and tradition are two very different concepts. Dogma is forced down from "above" and tradition is consensual. Tradition is "organic", dogma is proscribed. Tradition: "We chase a wheel of cheese down Coopers hill in Gloucestershire and invite severe injury, for a laugh" - won by a somewhat concussed Canadian lass this year, well done her. https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/may/29/woman-wins-coop... Dogma: "Th…

I would offer a slight alteration to your definition of "dogma". It's a Greek word and it was the name of wooden cubes that served as the markers of the edge of someone's property. It's more accurate to think of dogma as "boundaries" than as proscriptions. I am saying this as an Orthodox Christian, so this is probably a different view than the view of the Roman Catholic church that you are probably more familiar with…

Well we could go down a bit of an unproductive thread here! But let's not.

I've never heard of these wooden cubes and that needs looking into. I do know that in Germany, property boundaries are formally marked out or at least they were when I lived in West Germany on and off in the 70's-80's. In Britain we have red lines marked on really shit plans, registered with the Land Registry. Even so, it works.

I'm a Protestant (CofE). I was Confirmed by the Bishop in Jerusalem - we were stationed in Cyprus at the time (1996). Mind you it has suddenly occurred to me that there are probably several of them (denominations) and it was a long time ago ... (search) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Diocese_of_Jerusalem I think it must have been this bloke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kafity . Both he and his predecessor are/were Palestinian Arabs.

Well there's a thing. I recall a lovely man with a massive smile and his robes and mitre were coloured red, orange and yellow - really bright and very striking. I doubt our local lot could carry off that look!

My wife is a Roman Catholic. We married in a CofE church. Our Priest's wife very kindly sang Ave Maria for us. Neither of us suffered any calamity, you'll be glad to hear.

I'm not a fan of dogmatism of any sort. I will grant you that property demarcation is a great idea - it avoids arguments later on 8)

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singularities aren't believed to be real by physicists to my understanding. Which if true, would mean the existence of them in GR is an error of the formulation or an error of comprehension. If you look at the tangent lines facing toward the middle of the torus they would point to a single middle point, a singularity. But if you follow those lines around the surface they would never get to that extrapolated point of…

Singularities arent real in what sense? You can deal with some with penrose diagrams and other tools is what you mean?

They aren't real in the physical sense. Physicists do not believe that the singularity is a real physical phenomena at the centre of a black hole. They are only an artefact of the incomplete maths. When a singularity appears in the math of a theory, it is seen as an error or incompleteness in the theory. GR breaks down and fails to describe what happens at the centre of a black hole. It's like how a "divide by 0" doesn't actually equal "infinity", it's answer is undefined.

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singularities arent real in what sense? You can deal with some with penrose diagrams and other tools is what you mean?

They aren't real in the physical sense. Physicists do not believe that the singularity is a real physical phenomena at the centre of a black hole. They are only an artefact of the incomplete maths. When a singularity appears in the math of a theory, it is seen as an error or incompleteness in the theory. GR breaks down and fails to describe what happens at the centre of a black hole. It's like how a "divide by 0" doe…

> They aren't real in the physical sense.

In the spirit of Oppenheim's CQ (classical gravity, quantum matter) work which is discussed in the fine article at the top, I'll say that your first sentence is a bit too strong. Curvature singularities (in the Kretschmann (or other curvature scalar) divergence sense) aren't ruled out by astronomical observation. Indeed, practically no observational data sheds any light on the question. What is easily ruled out is Schwarzschild black holes (known black hole candidates all have significant angular momentum) and Kerr black holes (Kerr & Schwarzschild are eternal without beginning while our universe appears to have a finite age; they exist in an energy-free and non-fluctuating vacuum rather than in a local region full of at least CMB photons but also gas and dust and nearby stars; and they exist in a larger volume filled with stars, black holes in their host galaxy, galaxies with other black holes, and so on).

At the following link is Roy Kerr giving a 2016 invited talk where he points out that despite the success of the metric that carries his name, especially for round spinning bodies (planets, stars) and even the then-current evidence favouring Kerr as a good description of large black holes (evidence since then has also been supportive), nobody should feel comfortable about the Kerr interior solution because there will be matter inside an astrophysical BH that is for practical purposes Kerr for outside observers. https://youtu.be/nypav68tq8Q?t=2884> (around the 48 minute mark).

This is not that General Relativity is wrong, merely that GR itself depends on a solution to the Einstein Field Equations (EFEs) for a given spacetime, and black hole spacetimes commonly known by non-specialists (including physicists who aren't relativists) have features which are unphysical and which actually matter. There are lots of somewhat recondite solutions to the Einstein Field Equations (EFEs) which look like Kerr or Schwarzschild black holes to families of observers, but which have very different geometrical structure (these model black holes might have formed a finite time in the past by collapse of matter, for instance, or they might couple to a more realistic expanding spacetime with gravitational radiation from distant souces sloshing around).

Known black holes (rather, things that in telescopes etc are for all practical purposes black holes) are in such a complicated environment by comparison that we simply do not have an exact solution for the Einstein Field Equations for any of them. We are stuck with approximations, and those approximations often don't even solve the EFEs (even numerically) but rather some cut-down version.

The Raychaudhuri focusing theorem and similar results make it pretty clear that singularities form rather generically in fairly generic curved spacetimes equipped with matter. Penrose has raised comparable arguments. Our actual spacetime is not really generic on the whole, so we look at small pieces at a time and hope we are right in our guesses about how we can assemble multiple small pieces into an improved approximation of our universe. Those small pieces are calculated to be riddled with singularities for reasons related to Raychaudhuri, but that's an artifact of the construction of the small pieces as solutions of the EFEs, how we truncate those solutions, and/or how we stitch them together (e.g. Darmois-Israel).

Maybe what singularities arising in commonly-used black hole solutions of the Einstein Field Equations tell us is that our understanding of matter is off. Indeed, the whole article at the top is about a programme to study how quantum matter influences the gravitational field ("back-reaction"). For all we know, real matter that remains outside a black hole and does things like inverse Compton scattering (as well as matter that plunges inward) blocks the formation of a singularity inside. Part of the motivation for quantum gravity (CQ being a flavour thereof) is being able to extract observables that can answer that question.

> Physicists do not believe ...

I'm pretty sure many physicists hope that nature doesn't produce singularities mostly because that makes it harder to ask how parts of the universe evolve (solutions to the EFEs become infinite at a singularity, but we can sorta work around the supposed singularity with Bowen-York punctures, dynamical excisions, adaptive mesh refinement and other techniques). I'm also pretty sure that anyone with a background that supports the formation of such a belief (or its opposite, or some third choice) knows that today we just don't know how to prove much (even in principle) about the interior of black hole candidate objects in our sky.

Conversely, I do not believe there are singularities in those astronomically-observed objects, but that's because there isn't much evidence one way or another. In practice it really doesn't matter because the interior doesn't really matter much in practice, and if singularities are somehow observed we will cope with them. As to "somehow observed", quantum gravity phenomenology researchers will tell you that we would be lucky to catch the leading order quantum correction to GR with present-and-near-future observational ability, while theorists will then tell you that the singularity-or-not answer probably depends on the next-to-the-next-to-the-leading order. Consequently we have practically no way to distinguish among quantum gravity theories (including CQ) which are known to reproduce the successes of General Relativity in the neighbourhood immediately around our own planet.

(Indeed, the gravitational field of Earth barely needs General Relativity, let alone quantum corrections to that, and there are lots of things we don't know about the deep interior of our own planet. As far as anyone can tell using a post-Newtonian formalism one only needs the leading order (1PN) to fully describe all present measurements of gravitation around us. Earth's gravity essentially a barely-perturbed Kerr (exterior) metric (see e.g. Soffel & Frutos 2016). And that's only thousands of metres to thousands of kilometres away. So not knowing about the deep interior of things at minimum thousands of light-years away doesn't really disturb me, even as we go up to 3PN+ (see e.g. Clifford Will's 2011 "On the unreasonable effectiveness of the post-Newtonian approximation") based on our long-distance observation of the glowing and/or opaque stuff outside of them).

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks so much for your enlightening comment! > The difficulty is purely in having a properly defined wave function evolution and that is on its way to being solved. Interesting, could you provide some references?

Here are a some papers: Avoiding Ultraviolet Divergence by Means of Interior-Boundary Conditions https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.00497 This is perhaps the first of the papers and so may be a good place to start. Bohmian Trajectories for Hamiltonians with Interior-Boundary Condition https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.10235 This is the Bohmian part of the story. Multi-Time Wave Functions https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.05282 This explai…

Thanks so much!

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm definitely into the "it's an emergent phenomena" camp. I think it's inherently relational, as that's a more efficient way to encode geometry rather than space itself being a quantized "thing". Afaik this theory is the "leading"/imho most promising theory of "quantum gravity", that being the "gravity = entanglement" conjecture and the related ideas of "Complexity= action/volume/whatever" that susskind and many oth…

There are some pretty strict limitations on emergent phenomena, like Weinberg–Witten theorem. It doesn't rule out emergence of gravity but it makes it less likely

To my understanding that's only if you're trying to quantize the graviton as an emergent particle. I'm personally of the belief that spacetime itself is an emergent phenomena

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_gravity

Re: A physicist who bets that gravity can’t be quantized

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do if they're going into foundations of physics People don't do PhDs on this topic because it's not productive. Famous/bored/tenured/rich people pitch in arguments for fun. Anyway, the vast majority of work in foundations of physics has nothing to do with these interpretations https://link.springer.com/journal/10701/volumes-and-issues This is a niche inside a niche in a mostly irrelevant field. No advance in p…

I'm just repeating arguments that physicists like David Deustch, Sean Carrol, David Wallace, Sabine Hossenfelder have made, because they sound like good arguments to me. Better than ignoring the issues you get with shut up and calculate. Maybe you should take the issue up with them? Perhaps you think throwing out the term antivaxer makes you smarter than Einstein, Schrodinger and Bell?

This is like watching Star Trek and reading a book on the science of Star Trek where people make wild conjectures and coming away thinking that "Oh wow, scientists are working hard on warp drives!".
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