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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#371

Post by throwaway290 »

hbt wrote: post #344
pif wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they came for violent people preventing other pacific people to move on with their life, nobody needed to speak because their actions were against the law.

Will you be celebrating the 14th of July buddy? Or will you be condemning the act of 633 angry French citizens "storming the Bastille in Paris, capturing its munitions, releasing its seven prisoners, lynching the governor and demolishing the fortress". After all, they broke the law and since it's the law then clearly the government had full legitimacy... right? Next, you should be defending the "Code Noir" https://en…

Or defending the flattening of protesters who were occupying Tiananmen square...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#372

Post by icefo »

Aeolun wrote: post #232
sofixa wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law doesn't say being suspicious is criminal, but that organising with the intent to commit terrorism is, and that's what the prosecutor's will have to prove. The real, actual problem is the unlawful detention. > And, amongst other things, using Signal and Linux with the encryption-on settings are explicitly listed as some of the things making them suspicious in the eyes of the law. In combination with other thin…

> have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications If I did, why in hells name would I tell you? Why would you ask that in the first place? To catch out the incredibly dumb terrorists?

To put you in prison if they find by some mean you did.

The mean could be a 5$ wrench, hacking into your devices or plain old surveillance

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#373

Post by dtoma »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #362
HourglassFR wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture. This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe. I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few…

Le Pen is not "as far-right as it gets" and neither is Zemmour. Melenchon is very left-wing, started as a Trostkist and is good friend Venezuela's Maduro, against the capitalist system, etc. So if you think Le Pen is extreme on one side then Melenchon has to be equally extreme on the other side.

Who is "as far-right as it gets" if not these two? (in any country you want, not necessarily France)

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#374

Post by flashfaffe2 »

nunja wrote: post #230
beremaki wrote: post #158

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary…

Frenchman, pro business too. Completely share your analysis. This is slowly turning into a shit démocrature.

Short debate on the same topic on french TV:

https://youtu.be/5Sf6hdnSqS4

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#375

Post by ayewo »

sofixa wrote: post #347
lloeki wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the US system design is that the law as defined by the legislative body is in a way "minimalistic" (and even more so at the federal level), and jurisprudence augments it with the details. Taking your example, what constitutes murder and minimum and maximum penalty are defined in "broad strokes", and the judge gets to define "in this specific case that person is guilty in a way where they should be…

> My understanding of the US system design is that the law as defined by the legislative body is in a way "minimalistic" (and even more so at the federal level), and jurisprudence augments it with the details. Which really makes me wonder, how the hell to even professionals keep track of that? For regular stuff you literally can have thousands of relevant cases going back centuries as "precedent" to build on.

There are tools like LexisNexis and FindLaw -- professional search engines to help with finding relevant case law.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#376

Post by account42 »

piokoch wrote: post #228
beremaki wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale

Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.

And of course the response from the other parties is to see if they can ban the AfD instead of realizing that this is their own doing by continously ignoring the interest of the voters who are then easily swayed by a populist party (or just voting AfD because none of the other options are good either).

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#377

Post by denton-scratch »

Draiken wrote: post #255
beremaki wrote: post #158

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary…

I'm from Brazil and I'd say we've just had that disaster election you fear a few years ago. I used to laugh at the absurdities of the Trump government thinking it would never happen here and alas, it did. And it was even worse than most could have ever imagined. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the previous government and already dislike the current one's direction, but when you take one person that truly doesn't gi…

> but from where I stand, there's no way out.

I know how you feel!

I'm from the UK. Corbyn's Labour seemed to me to be a glimmer of hope; but he was pushed out by the MSM and a cabal of his own party's rightist officials, and replaced by a man who immediately on getting the leadership, repudiated all his manifesto promises.

So I no longer have anyone to vote for, and I favour revolution.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#378

Post by dtoma »

pif wrote: post #345
skitout wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few months after the start of the Gilet Jaune, they were not "blocking the country" anymore (I was answering a comment about this)... And while not supporting the Gilet Jaune mode of action anymore, people still strongly supported and support the main ideas they pushed, like Citizens' initiative referendum, or the Solidarity tax on wealth

> while not supporting the Gilet Jaune mode of action anymore, people still strongly supported and support the main ideas they pushed Imagine how successful they could have been if they had behaved as civilised people from the beginning! I personally like some of those ideas, but I'll never trust people who think that violence is justifiable.

I don't understand this point, and it's one we see very often. What would have happened if they'd been civilised?

1. We had a convention citoyenne pour le climat. Macron then mostly ignored it.

2. We have elected representatives who can vote on the laws for us. Macron then used article 49.3 to mostly ignore them.

3. Vote? For which candidate? None of them would cover all of the GJs' demands.

If you disqualify protests as a valid form of democratic expression, you also disqualify our famous revolution, the feminist protests that earned women the right to vote, the union strikes that earned us many worker rights, etc.

> I'll never trust people who think that violence is justifiable

Ah, that explains it. You only see violence in protesters who break windows, not in governments who enact laws on their people. Am I correct in assuming that you're ok with making people work 20 hours/week for the RSA as well?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#379

Post by Namari »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #175
cm2187 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have not been dissolved because they left their phone at home, they have been dissolved because it was a violent organisation that was systematically attacking the police and destroying property. And given the sort of stuff they brought to their protests: swords, machettes, baseball bats, jerrycan, bricks, fireworks, petanque balls, Molotov cocktails, fire bombs, etc, it is particularly disingenuous to pretend t…

Impressive mix of lies. The total value of items destroyed has been estimated to be about 8 million by the French state. While not a small number, I haven't seen the antiterrorist police be sent to the FNSEA's headquarters for their history of violence and destruction ever since 1960. It is part of their methods ever since their inception, but greasing some palms high up in the government certainly helps. >And given…

> Violence. Is. Caused. By. The. Police. None of these, not a single one of these items were used until the police started indiscriminately tear gassing thousands of protesters, the vast majority of them peaceful. Five thousand grenades and weapons classified as war weapons used on protesters.

It's obvious violence must have existed from both side. It's a bit obvious you're from the far left, just be neutral.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#380

Post by dtoma »

HourglassFR wrote: post #334
pif wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Polls showed that The only polls that matter are elections. Apart from elections, people have the right to avoid any poll without risking any policy change.

Elections are not, and should not, be the be-all end-all of a functionning democraty. Otherwise you just have an elective aristocracy. And to be clear, I'm not saying pure polling driven policy is the solution, but saying politician should outright ignore them because not legally binding is a very weird stance.

If anything, the origin of the 5th republic under its founding president used referendums to validate the president's actions. He literally resigned after losing a referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle#Retirement.
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