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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#371

Post by munificent »

psychphysic wrote: post #136
knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

So basically "do unto others" but phrased needlessly complexly?

The Golden Rule operates at the small scale of an iterated prisoner's dilemma where two parties are directly interacting.

Kant's wording scales up to include the emergent properties of a society which operated according to that rule.

The Golden Rule doesn't cover cases like, "Should I throw this trash in a lake." because there's no concrete person being "done unto". Kant's rule does: Would you want to live in a world where everyone threw trash in the lake? Probably not.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#372

Post by raghudotcc »

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of students cheat, but that's true of students from other countries(like US, Uk, etc) as well. I know this from my experience as a TA. I love computer science and so do many of my friends.

Edit: I should also add that I realize by low-trust OP meant the academic term for kinship-based society but my worry is that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that gets its image tarnished because of various other reasons like low-wage labour and tech scams might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#373

Post by wootland »

CydeWeys wrote: post #341
wootland wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a problem. That’s the point.

Cheaters getting ahead of honest people is of course a problem and I don't understand how you could possibly say it isn't. Those cheaters are taking away jobs and promotions from people who deserve it more.

If by the cheaters you mean the executives and investors who personally capture all of the profit, then I couldn't agree more. The reason that we're suffering from "inflation" and see record high wealth inequality is because the people at the top are hoarding all of the capital and profit leaving little for the vast majority of people.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#374

Post by amadvance »

ryandrake wrote: post #222
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I read these comments not as a defense of cheating, but as resignation that "This is just how the world is." Your view is right at home in a Star Trek The Next Generation world where everyone's needs are met and people act ethically, with good intentions and are in return treated fairly. A civilized, meritocratic world that doesn't exist. Like it or not, we live in a zero-sum dog-eat-dog world that pits neighbors aga…

Kirk cheated in the Kobayashi Maru ;)

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#375

Post by bumby »

JohnFen wrote: post #362
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I strongly disagree with that professor. Dishonesty does not have to be, and absolutely should not be, respected. Even if it is a "cultural difference" [citation required].

>"absolutely should not be, respected"

Taking issue with the 'absolute' part: The cultural context does impact what gets respected, though. For example, having an organization that avoids nepotism is generally respected in the U.S. There are other countries/cultures that do not, at least to the same degree. From their perspective, the more respectable act is to help out those in your tribe/family when you are in a position to do so.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#376

Post by scyzoryk_xyz »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #243
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I had a fantastic thermodynamics instructor in undergrad school. He was from a rough part of a city in Iran. At the beginning of the course, he told us his policy on cheating, which was zero tolerance. He added that he had seen every kind of cheating and dishonesty in his neighborhood growing up and there was no way anyone in that class would get away with anything because he had seen it all. It was a great course. A…

This. Low-trust countries generate an outflow of people in the direction of first-world countries. This is an incredible talent-pool of disciplined and motivated idealists and a lot of the technological IP that gives an upper hand to Western economies comes from this process.

Personally, my parents are such people - they left Poland in the 1970’s and excelled in America. One of the best things that our country has done since is that we have climbed into a higher-trust category in the 90’s. This has gradually limited that brain drain mechanic. While things aren’t perfect, there are far fewer such people leaving our economy and it has done wonders.

However, everywhere in the world this is a continuous battle that will always have to be fought and won over and over again. The lying and the cheating always creeps back into every system.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#377

Post by paulcole »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #2

Yes, it's fundamentally unfair to those interviewees who don't cheat. And the process is broken. However, the conclusion this person reaches - we must conduct these broken interviews in person so the cheaters can't cheat - is the wrong one. Look at it from the point of view of the hiring company now, not the interviewer. They got a person who was good enough (based on the merits of their actual work, not interview pe…

> However, the conclusion this person reaches - we must conduct these broken interviews in person so the cheaters can't cheat - is the wrong one.

It's not "right" or "wrong" - it's just a decision. There may be other choices and other decisions but to paint this one as flat wrong seems, well, wrong.

> They may not have found the very best person for the job

The vast majority of job searches do not have this as a goal!

Most companies want to hire somebody who's good enough relatively quickly for a price they want to pay.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#378

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #190
hoosieree wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious defic…

Yup. I've gravitated towards difficult domains in my career because they serve as a very effective filter on the people actually applying for them, they keep me sharp, and people that have needs in these areas tend to less of the stereotypical "idea people," that are looking to milk those who can execute.

Can you give any examples of those difficult domains?

I'm an ok-ish web developer, and would love to fine some niches to specialize in like you mentioned.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#379

Post by tristor »

wavefunction wrote: post #288
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I'd only roast you for misunderstanding the "problem" to be solved. It's not that the societies are "low-trust" but that the cost of being caught for cheating is that you continue with the life already available to you or you win a golden ticket if you're not caught. It's a no-brainer. There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to and what's the maxim about good programmers, they're so lazy they'…

You essentially just described the difference between low-trust and high-trust societies. In low-trust societies because minimal trust exists, violating trust has minimal consequences. With high-trust societies, losing trust has heavy consequences, because you've violated an expected social norm and it creates reputational damage.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#380

Post by JohnFen »

wavefunction wrote: post #288
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I'd only roast you for misunderstanding the "problem" to be solved. It's not that the societies are "low-trust" but that the cost of being caught for cheating is that you continue with the life already available to you or you win a golden ticket if you're not caught. It's a no-brainer. There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to and what's the maxim about good programmers, they're so lazy they'…

> There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to

It's a shame that being a decent person is not sufficient reason.

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