Live data from Hacker News

The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

bfi.uchicago.edu

371–380 of 426 posts

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#371
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of inferior material?

I can: - Vinyl windows compared to old growth wood windows from 100 years ago. - Vinyl siding compared to cedar shakes. - Extremely poor wood quality in the lower end 2x4 and 2x6 lumber. - Sheathing that's essentially cardboard in really cheap builds. - Flooring is sad today in cheap to moderate homes. Thing is there were really badly built homes 100 years ago and they just aren't standing any longer. We do get a but…

Vinyl/plastic windows and siding might be used because they are superior basically in every way? They don't rot, don't require almost any maintenance (exterior painting, etc.), windows fit much better and are better insulated, siding is much harder to damage and easier to clean (and also doesn't need paint).

Frankly wooden windows are a personal pet peeve of mine. I have old (many decades) wooden windows in my house, and also new-ish wooden windows and plastic windows that were installed at the same time by the same company during a single renovation by the previous owner, so I can compare either old-new or new-new. If aliens landed and asked me "hey, we need to identify a few idiots among your species, can you give us the most reliable way to find one? Doesn't have to be broadly applicable, but does have to be a sure bet." I'd say "Look for people ordering wooden windows." I just utterly cannot comprehend why anyone would do it.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#372
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because updating old houses to the new code frequently requires rebuilding substantial portions of the house to comply with new requirements OK but if I build a new house to the old code then I also will need substantial work to rebuild it to bring it into compliance. So I could use the same logic I shouldn't have to. Safe enough for them, safe enough for me. >No, houses are held up to the code that applied when the…

Let's go and tear down houses when code is updated and see how quick we can make everyone homeless. It's not reasonable to build with GFCI outlets in the bathrooms in 1956. It's not reasonable to build without them in 2023. Most places have a very limited enforcement appetite for existing construction. If it was safe and current when built, it's fine enough. Exceptions include adding smoke and carbon monoxide detecto…

The building inspector can't see all the people you're making homeless right now by creating ever more expensive building codes. The permitting office doesn't see the good food people can't buy their children because they're spending more on their mortgage. The code enforcement officer doesn't see the person who ended up missing finding cancer early because their gas tank was empty and they couldn't book a doctor's appointment after increased inspecting and architectural requirements. People just see "bad thing happened in house because bad codes, spend more money that gets ripped away from other things that make us safe."

And that's part of the trickery involved here. People say "look that one guy died in that house so we need to require stricter code here." They're not noticing the freezing homeless people that died because housing become $X dollars more expensive and they lost the musical chairs game. Sure the homeless guy wasn't going to buy a brand new house, but through the substitution effect across a wide swath of society eventually down the chain it does filter down to everyone ultimately affecting their access to housing. And hey, added bonus, current homeowners property is also worth more when building becomes more expensive so why not juice that one housing related death for all you got even if you know saving that one in a million rich person's life ends with 2 more dead homeless people or whatever.

The ability for voters, already homed, to just change up the codes on everyone while not having their own homes subjected creates a cruel moral hazard and socially bifurcating effect. The guy that gets in early comes in and gets his, then says fuck you, you have to play by different rules.

I'm not saying the houses should be torn down. I'm saying any updates should put situation where homeowner voters are subject to their own medicine. I don't think they'll choose to tear down the houses. No they might decide after all "hey good enough for me, good enough for you."

As for "can't build with X thing they did/didn't have before." Well you can update the codes to allow both the old and new method for something. That would satisfy conditions for both standing and new construction without uniform enforcement causing old houses to be demolished.

It's honestly kind of insane I've had a couple people basically suggest that if the rules be applied evenly, they're going with the "go and tear down houses when code is updated and see how quick we can make everyone homeless" option to pick up their toys and go home rather than give others the same chance they had by allowing the old ways in the code. That's the only way I can make out you would seriously think people would end up homeless.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet if I built a new house against code they would still make me go back and fix it, even though I could make the exact argument you made about the old house not penciling out to go back and make them fix it.

Well, yeah, isn't that just enforcing the codes? If you didn't have to go back and fix it, you could build as many sloppy houses as you want and the codes would be meaningless.

[deleted]

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. The weak link in creating ever more complex homes, with ever more stringent building codes, at faster rates, is to remove the "humans with nail guns and drills" from the construction process. At some point, us meat sacks are the…

Manufactured homes have been a thing for decades now. The problem with them is that their efficiency gains don't scale. It's relatively cost effective to produce a single-wide trailer, but not so much when producing cookie cutter two story homes with basements. For American-style suburban homes, it's most efficient to build most of the home on site, and only manufacture off-site a handful items like roof trusses. Peo…

Agreed, that’s why I said “experimenting”… cause as you’ve stated, it’s still not scalable. I think in time though, someone is going to disrupt this market. That’s just my opinion though.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet if I built a new house against code they would still make me go back and fix it, even though I could make the exact argument you made about the old house not penciling out to go back and make them fix it.

Well, yeah, isn't that just enforcing the codes? If you didn't have to go back and fix it, you could build as many sloppy houses as you want and the codes would be meaningless.

I would only apply such standard if it passes the symmetry principle with currently legal houses which is the context in which above mentioned about the not being worth bulldozing/fixing if they met the old codes. I.e. if the problem was legal for the construction of a currently inhabited house then the same logic about not being worth it to start over applies to the new house as the old house. Therefore it couldn't possibly devolve into codes being meaningless but rather worst case devolve into creating a baseline of allowing older codes which apparently are safe enough we haven't kicked their owners out. In effect it would create equality in home ownership rather than a standard where you can build a house and then vote to make it harder for the next guy to artificially raise your property values. If something is truly too unsafe to exist the rules should be applied uniformly rather than giving privileged immunities to early entrants.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#376
post #364
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are…

That's not the root cause. The Root cause is needing a house for your car.

I disagree.

The root cause is that homes are in part appraised (for mortgage purposes) on hypothetical rebuild costs, so this is a way to make those rebuild costs higher (and justify why you’re paying $500k for something that cost $40k in 1980).

If it weren’t car garages, it would be kitchens.

Cars are a separate problem, as evidenced by the extreme housing prices in some of America’s least car reliant cities (NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc.).

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#377
post #345
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are…

This even extends to stuff added to builds that are mandated by law and have little reasonable justification. For example, a city might demand all new apartment units need to have a balcony, and all new apartment buildings might need to have some open courtyard space. Now you've increased the cost per unit by a huge amount by mandating these balconies and also the unrentable voidspace.

And this is part due to the fact that real estate has to (at least in part) be valued on hypothetical replacement cost.

Can’t have apartment buildings reading hands for $100mn when a new one costs $20mn (or have the land sell for $80mn when you only allow 2 stories to be built on it).

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#378
post #358
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are…

The 2% is a bit misleading because the fire severity depends on how well it's contained. ~50% of fires are "confined" to an object, mostly cooking fires inside pots. Garages are 5% of non-confined fires, which is similar to living rooms (6%) and attics (5%) [0]. The numbers also go slightly up when apartment buildings are excluded[1], taking garage fires to 6% of non-confined residential fires. [0] https://www.usfa.f…

Thank you for the clarification, but it still seems arbitrary to single out garages (I think it was chosen because it’s simply the most palatable)

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget all the roofline complexity for "aesthetics". Or higher pitches because they look nice too. It'd be interesting to see these stats broken out by trade, with an appropriate unit (/sqft might make sense for roofing, but it doesn't for wall sheathing). I'd think a good chunk of this is due to safety expectations as well. It's a lot easier to walk around a roof if you aren't concerned with fall protection.

Yeah, all these fugly pop-outs that are typical in the "McMansion" style have to take a lot more time than just making a normal, more-or-less rectangular-footprint house. More measuring, more cutting, more separate pieces to apply, for every layer that goes on. More ridges and valleys to deal with when roofing. They do make the house look bigger (on the outside) than a same-square-footage house with a more traditiona…

You may enjoy the "McMansion Hell" blog, it explores all the little details that cause us to be repulsed by this type of house. They have a "McMansions 101" post which is a nice place to get started - https://mcmansionhell.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions-101-w...

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#380
post #9

> number of houses or total square footage built per employee Average house size has probably doubled in the last 50 years. Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today.

Pretty sure this is the right answer and calling this "worker productivity" seems a bit harsh. A "Pretty Good House" (book that was on the front page last week) includes insulation above and below the foundation slab, vapour barriers, double studs to break thermal bridges, complex window installation (again thermal bridges), air exchangers and heat pumps with ducts (or mini-splits). New constructions (for cold zone),…

As someone who works in construction, I have to say that rolling a few sheets of barrier or framing a couple extra walls really doesn't take that long or cost too much. It's on the order of $5k or less and a couple days work, for both materials and labor.

What does cost time and money is getting permits, planning approval, inspection, etc. Not that those are unimportant, but any delays are certainly not on the construction crew's behalf.

Post reply on HN