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The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

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371–380 of 456 posts

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#371

I never really understood why we need leap seconds. Or better: why we need to bother with them in a computer system at lower level. If we decide that we absolutely need to keep our time in sync with the rotation of the earth, really what should be done is define a timezone with all the leap seconds applied, and use that timezone to only display it to the end user. Not change the way we sync computer clocks for no rea…

We don't. We were over achieving when they were established.

The cost/benefit at the time didn't look so bad because the world wasn't full of distributed synchronized computer systems, so the added 'cost' of leap seconds was just some make work for geeks in national timing labs.

The cost benefit is very different today.

We can keep civil time roughly aligned with the sun by moving timezones an hour every four to five thousand years.

Applications that want to give accurate sidereal time or very accurate sun-up sun-down can use predictions of UT1. Bonus: it's a lot easier to give an accurate UT1 when you don't have to worry that leapsecond (mis)handling has screwed up your underlying clock.

That's another part of the cost model that has changed: When leap seconds were created it would have been burdensome to carry around an additional offset in time transmissions for those few applications that want a more accurate mean solar time. But today its fairly easy.

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#372
post #22

> Leap seconds aren’t predictable, because they depend on to Earth’s natural rotation. This is surprising to me. Is the Earth's rotation so arbitrary?

It doesn't help that the atomic second was defined using old data such that when it was defined we were already relatively far off from 86400 seconds/day. A relatively large part of the correction being applied by leap seconds comes from this initial offset, which is also why all leap seconds so far have been in one direction. (and why the handling of the other direction is essentially completely untested, making the prospects of a negative leap second in near-ish future pretty frightening).

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#373
post #13

So we make things worse for humans in order to make it easier for computers? Yah, one second doesn't matter, but it builds up. This: "Or we could even decouple our sense of time from the Sun entirely, to create a single world time zone in which different countries see the Sun overhead at different times of day or night." Shows that they are completely disconnect from human reality: "Science already doesn’t use local…

> one second doesn't matter, but it builds up.

Less than you think. A part of the leap second is correcting an unpredictable random walk. The random walk part does not add up.

The linear drift part does add up. We're still talking several thousand years to end up with just an hour offset.

Just switching to a new timezone every few thousand years ("As of Jan 1st 6022, fifty years from now, all usage of Eastern timezone will switch to New Eastern timezone, which is an hour ahead.") would handle your civil usage concern fine.

(and then in year 10022 they can switch to New New Eastern timezone, if there are any survivors of world war 5...)

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#374

I'm' baffled by the section about GLONASS. Russia surely has the ability to decide whether they add or remove future leap seconds?

In prior advocacy for the elimination of leap seconds, I found that many of the officials appointed to talk about this stuff are fairly clueless about the engineering.

I wouldn't be too shocked if they asked "what uses leap seconds", got an answer, and are advocating on that basis ("We have systems that use leap seconds!"), without having actually asked better questions like "What would require expensive changes if no more leap seconds were issued?"

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#375

In 2015 I was working at a "fintech" company and a leap second was announced. It was scheduled for a Wednesday, unlike all others before which had happened on the weekend, when markets were closed. When the previous leap second was applied, a bunch of our Linux servers had kernel panics for some reason, so needless to say everyone was really concerned about a leap second happening during trading hours. So I was assig…

This is a good story regardless, but if you do want to derive some morals from the experience: – Seemingly simple tasks can be more complex than you expect (“add a leap second on this Wednesday”) – Real world systems can be more complex than you expect (“bunch of software I never even knew existed”) – Planning and testing can make a big difference vs. just winging it (“a bunch of our Linux servers had kernel panics f…

> Sometimes the best solution is not a technical solution (“halt the markets for 15 minutes before/after”)

I'm little confused. How does this solve the problem? If you don't code for the second, you'll still be off if you wait. I'm I missing something?

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#376
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The committee still wants UTC to be periodically adjusted to match the Earth's rotation. They just want to adjust it less often, where "less often" probably rounds to "never" in practical terms.

Huh, so they want to go from small, frequent anomalies to large, infrequent anomalies. I think "never" is going to be exactly accurate; once we reach 1 minute of offset from astronomical time, everyone will be too afraid to adjust UTC because we'll have had a couple centuries of complacent software written in the meantime. Got it!

> everyone will be too afraid to adjust UTC

Sounds like that is a benefit.

Lets just not adjust UTC. Problem solved.

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#377
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drift is sufficiently slow that you can fix it with a "leap hour" when needed -- perhaps once every five thousand years. This could be handled for civil/local time via an adjustment in the timezone definitions (something which happens a few times a year today), leaving the underlying UTC timebase unchanged.

The main difficulty is convincing Greenwich to not be utc+0 anymore.

My understanding is that clocks in Greenwich are set to utc+1 from the last Sunday of March until the last Sunday of October. (They call it British Summer Time).

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#378

In 2015 I was working at a "fintech" company and a leap second was announced. It was scheduled for a Wednesday, unlike all others before which had happened on the weekend, when markets were closed. When the previous leap second was applied, a bunch of our Linux servers had kernel panics for some reason, so needless to say everyone was really concerned about a leap second happening during trading hours. So I was assig…

The moral here is that you and people in similar positions convinced everyone else that there was too much risk to go forward. Either by direct or, indirect action and implication. Sometimes, just seeing what your own team needs to feel safe and seeing what everyone else is or not doing on the same front is enough to make the call one way or the other.

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#379
post #345
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps another moral to add: ISO8601 solves a lot of problems.

This is a misconception. ISO8601 has six versions, is 14 pages long, and defines way to many ways to represent dates and times. Everyone should follow RFC 3339. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3339#section-5.6

But they‘re mostly trivial variations of each other, or durations that nobody uses at all.

Re: The leap second’s time is up: world votes to stop pausing clocks

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we ever need a leap minute? Just let time zones drift. Unless you happen to be at the exact longitude for which your time zone is correct, the sun's not at its highest point in the sky for you at exactly noon anyway. Eventually, thousands of years from now when time has drifted by an hour or more (assuming modern technological civilization even still exists by then), each jurisdiction can just change their…

The last part is right and is also why we have this problem. Leap seconds are an architectural blunder that always belonged in the abstraction layer that lines up the sun with the rotation of earth (the time zone abstraction). It never belonged in the part that counts seconds.

This is definitely the most interesting point in this whole comment chain.
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