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NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

iapps.courts.state.ny.us

371–380 of 443 posts

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because every stick needs a carrot. Positive reinforcement is not antithetical to the threat of violence and can go hand-in-hand. If you're good to me I'll treat you like family. But violate that peace and me and my clan will come down on you with furious anger. That's how people have lived for time immemorial.

Even so, violence isn't so much the basis for society itself, just the govt. And either way, it's only how outliers are dealt with. Most of what most people do all day every day is constrained by things like their family and peers' expectations and their commitments. I'd say social structures are primarily based on cultural norms.

Speaking as the son of someone who runs operations for the a federal district court, every ounce of the “violence” bit is covered by pounds and pounds of cultural norms and a fair bit of ritual as well.

Our aversion to violence is not new. In ancient Rome, it was sacrilegious to bring weapons inside the pomerium.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only the extremely elderly or obese are in any significant danger of dieing of COVID We should not make policy decisions as long as only the elderly and otherwise vulnerable are at risk?

Yes, exactly. We shouldn't upend everyone's lives for the sake of the elderly and the feeble. The median age of a Covid-associated death in the US is near the average life expectancy[0]. There's a case to be made that the lockdown-related life loss, including the great increase in deaths of despair, as well as future poverty in children who more or less lost two years of schooling, will exceed the Covid death toll. O…

Not all policy decisions would necessarily result in "upend[ing] everyone's lives".

Many person years were lost: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

I sat in the ICU as my father died and listened to the many ventilators as a result of policy failures. I had lots of time to contemplate possible policy decisions. Pretending that the only possible choices were "do nothing" and "do something stupid" is not useful to the discussion or any future policy decision.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#373
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of the vaccines in terms of preventing spread weren't studied, per pharmaceutical company testimony to congress. The whole notion that you getting the vaccine would prevent grandma from dying was a whole-cloth fabrication.

And if they were, would that change the ethical calculation here? If we had a sterilizing vaccine, and you refused to take it, and got me sick, could I hold you responsible? I'm just trying to understand exactly to what extent other people's selfish choices should be allowed to endanger my life and livelihood.

This take has a straw man vibe. Who cares about the "what if"? Let's address what happened yesterday and how that impacts today.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#374
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home Depot was open because people need to fix shit around their house if you want them to stay home. What's arbitrary about that? I agree with you about the beaches. But in the early days, we didn't really know what worked and what didn't. People said 6 feet apart was safe enough indoors because "droplets containing the virus fall to the ground".

It was arbitrary because small hardware stores had to close, while big ones could stay open. Also, because in most states someone in the governor’s office just went down a random list of professions or business types and decided on the spot whether to shut them down or not. That’s the very definition of arbitrary and capricious. It also fails the rational basis test, since the government hadn’t even come up with a ra…

I didn't know about small hardware stores being forced to close. That's the arbitrary part then. If it was a question of space, they should've been allowed to continue business with curbside pickups.

Religion and community are important. But congregating inside a church building is not something that needs to be prioritized during a pandemic. Schools and daycares first.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, you want a big brother to tell you what to do. But why would you bring me into this?

>Ok, you want a big brother to tell you what to do. More like I want to solve an increasingly unsusatinable cost to society: >People with obesity experienced a statistically significant twofold increase in average direct healthcare costs per year (EUR 5,934), compared with controls (EUR 2,788) and had statistically significantly higher indirect costs compared to controls. Total healthcare costs for people with obesit…

So you want to solve a problem created by authoritarian enforcement of healthcare costs distribution by introducing authoritarian enforcement of lifestyle?

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think the government can and should regulate food consumption. We already did it with cigarettes and trans fats. Omega-6 fatty acids should be next. A more fair but less politically viable alternative is to tax the healthcare of people with >%30 body fat. But these should probably have 10 year limits with the ultimate goal of changing people's habits.

Sounds like the more reasonable solution is to remove taxpayer funding for healthcare. That way, people who make bad choices wouldn't be subsidized by the public.

Yeah, except that's even less politically viable.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#377
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Tried 5 minutes and it just seemed like the usual "Dore had a different provax position and then changed his mind," and "he doesn't read articles with the pro-vaccine gloss which the commentator would consider 'truthful' ". Some "Dore's position is popular and therefore making him money and therefore a grift" thrown in for good measure. Is there some point in the 50 mins where they actually lay out a case that he fak…

He didn’t read the article and point out why he disagreed, he literally misquoted the article (multiple times) to make it seem like it said something it did not.

Even if you say “well, that’s just one article” the 50 minute video demonstrates this is a pattern of Dore’s.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#379
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to understand that not all people who against vax mandates are anti-vaxers.

I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…

This definition of "anti-vax" is broad enough to include those who happily received the vaccine, but oppose mandates.

That really isn't what normal people infer from the term.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. We shouldn't upend everyone's lives for the sake of the elderly and the feeble. The median age of a Covid-associated death in the US is near the average life expectancy[0]. There's a case to be made that the lockdown-related life loss, including the great increase in deaths of despair, as well as future poverty in children who more or less lost two years of schooling, will exceed the Covid death toll. O…

Not all policy decisions would necessarily result in "upend[ing] everyone's lives". Many person years were lost: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm I sat in the ICU as my father died and listened to the many ventilators as a result of policy failures. I had lots of time to contemplate possible policy decisions. Pretending that the only possible choices were "do nothing" and "do something stu…

Yes, many person years were lost, mostly among the elderly and infirm. I am truly sorry for your loss, whether your father was in that group or not. But the fact on the ground is that "do nothing" and "do something stupid" were the only two choices that actually happened around the world, and regrettably mostly the latter. Pretending otherwise is not useful to the discussion or any future policy decision.

There is really no example of a country that successfully "did something well" as a matter of policy; the countries that fared better in terms of death rates did so on the basis of their demographics or their cultural habits. Countries with younger or fitter (less obese) populations did much better. Countries with more group-minded cultures, like the East Asian countries, did better, but those countries are also much less obese so it's unclear how much the habitual masking in those places helped. If you have counterexamples, I would love to hear about them.

In the end, there's not much policy-wise you can do in the face of a highly transmissible airborne disease that's not actually deadly enough to scare people into staying away from each other. Governments can issue as many policy decisions as they would like in the moment, but in the end everyone is going to get it, and some will die.

Long-term policies that encourage people to actually be healthy would help a lot more; but instead many countries, and especially the developed Western ones, did the opposite and encouraged or forced people to stay home, next to their refrigerators, in fear, away from laughter and joy from their social groups, all the while demonizing those who broke the arbitrary and capricious rules at the same time that political leaders were visibly flouting their own rules. I suppose we can agree that we learned a lot about what not to do for the next pandemic.

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