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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#371

Post by tylerhou »

Manuel_D wrote: post #342
tylerhou wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t reduce Asian-Americans to the myth of the model minority. The truth is more nuanced. The income gap between poor and rich Asians in the US is the highest out of any ethnic group. One reason for this is that recent Asian immigration has selected for largely been wealthy and/or well educated populations. So what you call “Asian culture” will have a natural bias towards the preferences of people who value m…

The "model minority myth" occurs when someone takes population-wide trends and applies it on an individual level: e.g. "he's Asian, so he must be good at math". That's stereotyping. Pointing at demographic trend in academic achievement isn't the model minority myth, it's an empirical observation. Conflating objective facts with the model minority myth is perhaps well intentioned, but it comes off as a shallow attempt…

I’m Asian-American, if you can’t tell by my username.

My point is that very often the success of Asian-Americans even though they are a disadvantaged class has been used to justify anti-Black rhetoric. In the context of this HN thread, which is specifically about D&I and hiring more Black people, bringing up a “better Asian culture” can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional. This is the myth of the model minority.

It’s a mistake to assume that “empirical,” “objective” observations cannot be racist. In particular, white-supremacists often intentionally present “facts” and “data” in order to paint a misleading picture. For examples, see 13/52: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390. The missing context in 13/52 is that Black people have suffered much more economic and social injustice, Black areas are more likely to be policed, Black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted for the same crime, etc. It would be dishonest to simply say “Black people make up 13% of the population but commit 52%…” without supplying this additional context. I.e. even if the data itself is “objective,” the context and presentation also matters because those will affect how people interpret that data.

Again, not trying to say that you were intending to be racist. I just wanted to show you what your statements could imply and that you may be unknowingly repeating white-supremacist rhetoric.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#372

Post by odiroot »

outworlder wrote: post #16
logicalmonster wrote: post #2

According to the Microsoft 2021 Annual Diversity And Inclusion report, 34.9% of employees identified as Asian in the US, far exceeding their overall representation in the US population. Why are Asians doing so well? Why can't we replicate this for other groups? And doesn't trying to hire more of other races imply that mathematically speaking, fewer Asians must be hired and promoted to achieve greater equality? Please…

> Why are Asians doing so well? Why can't we replicate this for other groups? What _are_ the groups? "Asian" can mean anything. From India, China, Japan, many countries in Oceania, etc. I think the classification is fundamentally flawed.

Don't forget Middle East.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#373

Post by Glide »

systemvoltage wrote: post #320
pc86 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to live in this kind of contrived world.

I kind of agree with OP. Lot of the D&I initiatives are CYA from lawsuits and we have built regulations so that D&I are instituted permanently by law. I hope SCOTUS strikes all of this down.

I’m surprised I had to go down this far into the conversation before I saw someone bringing up legal liability.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#374

Post by luckylion »

rrradical wrote: post #287
Manuel_D wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So minority candidates are given an advantage in getting their foot in the door, but still have to prove themselves qualified for the job by doing well in interviews. Discrimination in selecting who to interview is absolutely a form of discrimination. Imagine I tell my recruiters to exclusively interview white Catholics, and I respond "well, those white Catholics still had to pass the skill-based interview. Had we…

> Discrimination in selecting who to interview is absolutely a form of discrimination. Exactly. That's what the parent comment is saying. But they are thinking about the entire funnel, not just the end of it. By the time a slate of candidates reaches a company's hiring process, there has already been an immense selection bias against minority candidates. Two people growing up in different places (not different cities…

> Two people growing up in different places (not different cities, but different neighborhoods within the same city) have lived in completely different worlds.

The top comment doesn't care about that at all, skin color is all that matters. It's about group identity, not differences in backgrounds. They'd give Obama's daughter "a foot in the door" over the daughter of some white hillbillies that is the first in her family to finish high school. Because obviously: group identity is paramount.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#375

Post by mblatt2 »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #251
CincinnatiMan wrote: post #88

I don’t work at Microsoft, but another large corporation, and have been told by my manager that right now it is difficult for a white male to get promoted and that we may need to do some strange maneuvers to make it happen if I’m interested in a promo. Was kind of taken aback by the bluntness.

Assuming you're in the United States, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the EEOC are mere suggestions nowadays. There is no willingness in our DEI-co-opted government to tackle these issues and hold these blatantly illegal and unethical actors accountable.

No post body was provided.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#376

Post by wyager »

Glide wrote: post #373
systemvoltage wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of agree with OP. Lot of the D&I initiatives are CYA from lawsuits and we have built regulations so that D&I are instituted permanently by law. I hope SCOTUS strikes all of this down.

I’m surprised I had to go down this far into the conversation before I saw someone bringing up legal liability.

I'm surprised at how negative the reaction to my explanation is. It's not even controversial to anyone who keeps track of the current state of title VII legal strategy.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#377

Post by dvngnt_ »

ryan93 wrote: post #192
OrangeMonkey wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your statement is the issue. If you have two equally qualified candidates - one anglo saxan male from boston, and one african american female from georgia - at many places, one is going to be consistently chosen. I agree - that is absolutely bias based on protected characteristics. Do you?

Evidence that one is going to be consistently chosen?

there's a few studies regarding resume names and getting call backs

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#378

Post by fzeroracer »

badpun wrote: post #355
fzeroracer wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also not true regarding the history of the software field. The explosion in engineer salaries is relatively recent. It was only post-2000s when it became a very lucrative field for engineers and by that point the percentage of women developers had dropped off. This was due to both companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men as well a shift in advertising for home computers and deri…

Can you point me to your sources on companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men? It's the first time I'm hearing about this.

In the '60s the common way programmers were interviewed were through aptitude tests. The standard at the time was the IBM Programmer Aptitude Test, but in the 70s and 80s that shifted to a new personality profile that inherently favored men [1] [2] [3] by Cannon and Perry. This became the new institutional standard and was used to determine who was a 'viable' programmer or not. This is where the traditional 'programmers are anti-social and hate people' thing came from and took root. In turn, advertising became male-focused, men were given more opportunity to become programmers and that's how the industry shifted. There's a bunch of very blatant advertising in the late-70s and early-80s that shows how this shifted.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/how-bias-pushed-the-compu...

[2] https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/born-it-how-image...

[3] https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-...

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#379

Post by dvngnt_ »

hintymad wrote: post #117

Maybe the question is why the leftists are so influential that for-profit companies are willing to comply with their ideology. Isn't the best way to increase the representation of minorities is to increase the funnel? Better schools, better teachers, more rigorous curriculum for all instead of for the elite students, a whole new culture that values curiosity and geekiness in general, and eventually a larger number of…

my assumption is that the left is actually in support for better education in inner cities.

i mostly hear about Republicans banning books

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#380

Post by Manuel_D »

tylerhou wrote: post #371
Manuel_D wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "model minority myth" occurs when someone takes population-wide trends and applies it on an individual level: e.g. "he's Asian, so he must be good at math". That's stereotyping. Pointing at demographic trend in academic achievement isn't the model minority myth, it's an empirical observation. Conflating objective facts with the model minority myth is perhaps well intentioned, but it comes off as a shallow attempt…

I’m Asian-American, if you can’t tell by my username. My point is that very often the success of Asian-Americans even though they are a disadvantaged class has been used to justify anti-Black rhetoric. In the context of this HN thread, which is specifically about D&I and hiring more Black people, bringing up a “better Asian culture” can be interpreted as a racist dogwhistle, even if it was unintentional. This is the…

No, facts are not in and of themselves racist.

If someone points out that men commit the vast majority of rape, and thus we shouldn't assume courts are misandrist on account of the immense inequity in rape convictions, that is not sexist. If someone points to this fact to try and justify a curfew for men, or lowered burdens of proof the yes it is.

A flag showing "13/52" next to a snarling ape is undoubtedly racist. Pushing back against a quota mandating that African Americans make up no more than 13% of murder convictions, on the grounds that murder rates are not equal isn't racist.

Is this really hard to comprehend? I expect the average middle schooler is capable of understanding this, and repeatedly cautioning HN readers about potentially racist readings is more than a little condescending.

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