Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 770 posts

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#371

Post by themitigating »

highwaylights wrote: post #246
Bakary wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing the forest for the trees. Of course we'd be more emotionally involved if it was someone we knew, that's not hypocritical. Most people aren't against fixing societal problems, either. As it stands, homelessness is definitely something that affects a ton of people so it definitely is our problem as long as we are city dwellers. The problem here is that misapplied empathy can lead to terrible decisions.…

To be fair, some of us have been calling attention to this problem for a long ass time, and nothing is being done about it. E-mail needs to be a regulated utility, given that getting locked out of one’s email happens all the time with catastrophic consequences.

Why does email need to be a regulaty utility when there are other methods of communication?

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#372

Post by Hitton »

foobarian wrote: post #288
peatmoss wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually giving homes to the homeless would probably be cheaper than whatever we are doing now, even taking into account the mental illness and drug-abuse problems that factor into this. This point is worth reiterating. Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. Yes, homelessness is a complex multi-faceted problem, but the first order solution to the problem is to provide housing. Homelessness is a problem wi…

> Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. They used to be called asylums, and the problem is what to do if the homeless person refuses to go. I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states...

>I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states...

Because vagrancy is punishable by prison time there.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#373

Post by Kalium »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #172
sp332 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you going to sign in to your OTP app on a new device?

Reinstall the app and restore private keys from off device backup. The lack of key backup and restore is one big reason not to use Google's authenticator app. Other compatible apps are not so brain dead. I backup every time I add a new sign in. If you don't have the ability to sign in from multiple devices and the ability to install access onto any new device, then you're doing it wrong. Phones are highly portable de…

The problem here boils down to this: how does this help people who don't have secure, reliable storage for off device backup?

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#374

Post by flerchin »

paganel wrote: post #148
everdrive wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, technology has reached a point where it's expected to be ubiquitous, however is not as accessible as other ubiquitous and necessary services. This has been brought up before, buy can someone in their 70s keep up with the changing UIs and websites and security requirements these days? This is all fine for something like Netflix or Spotify. But for government services, access to jobs, and fundamental communi…

> someone in their 70s keep I'm in my early 40s, computer programmer, and I've temporarily lost access to my WhatsApp account because I don't have a recent enough mobile phone, and the phone that I do have doesn't have a relatively recent OS installed. It's a 4-year old (I think I've got it for 4 years) iPhone SE, on which I never updated the OS because I hadn't feel the need to do it. When I started getting pop-ups…

If your face hurts, maybe you should stop punching yourself in the face. Update your software.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#375

Post by themitigating »

Kalium wrote: post #238
angry_octet wrote: post #19

This problem, and the not-my-problem responses, really highlight the self centered mindset we have encouraged. What if that homeless person was your substance-abusing sibling? A friend from school with mental health issues? We need to collectively take more responsibility for those in the worst situations. If you've every tried to teach an old person how to use 2FA you know it's an uphill battle. Using a fingerprint…

OK. Let's play a game. Let's say I care. Let's say I care a lot . I care so much that I'm willing to make it my personal problem to address the very real, very pressing needs of a critically vulnerable and marginalized part of my community from inside Google. What am I going to do? Is anyone going to be happier if I stand up and proclaim loudly how much I care? Probably not. Could I say "Gee, what if we just let ever…

Empathy is the motivation and starting point. Even if you don't go beyond that step you can vote for those that will.

"Sometimes problems are just hard. Taking ownership and feeling empathy and sincerely wanting to solve the problem does not render them easy."

No one said it did and it's better than not caring at all.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#376

Post by flerchin »

paganel wrote: post #325
arubania2 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What‘s your speciality in programming? Keeping all your software, and that includes the OS, up to date, is one of the most important aspects of personal security.

I also don’t have a WiFi password at home, if it matters. Of course, I don’t have Internet banking nor do I do much (if at all) money-related things with my phone, something tells me that makes me more secure than people who trust Apple and Google with their money (at least the local banks have to answer to the authorities). What’s your employment specialty that makes you trust Apple and Google?

That something would be wrong. I can steal all your money with the information on the front of one of your checks.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#377

Post by Wowfunhappy »

themitigating wrote: post #363
tsimionescu wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't find it paternalistic. The goal is to cut down on support costs by reducing the number of users who get hacked and need assistance regaining access to their accounts, and to force users to have a method of demonstrating they own the account even if they can't log in. That it confers some additional security to users is nice, but not really the end goal. So we should be mindful of Google's profit margins, in…

It's security vs homeless access to vital services. I think it's a diffiult line to draw

I don't think it's difficult!

• The people who want security get to keep all the security they get today.

• The people who don't think about security and leave default settings intact keep all the security they get today.

• The people who explicitly ask for less security get less security.

• Some of the homeless will get increased access to vital services.

It's a win-win—unless you believe, for some reason, that people should have security forced on them even if they explicitly ask to not have it. I fundamentally don't understand this mindset. People should have the right to do dangerous things if they are warned of the risks involved.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#378

Post by syrrim »

MAGZine wrote: post #177
calibas wrote: post #161

Potential solution, the Obamaphone program keeps using the same phone number for an individual instead of totally new ones every time they lose a phone.

this feels like a workaround. We should not be treating phonenumbers as SSN round two, where everyone relies on it for your identity, and it should never be changed because of how much shit was needlessly tied to it. I rue the day I need to change my phone number and my digital identity becomes a huge headache, especially for far flung services that decided they wanted my phone number, but I wouldn't have considered…

It already is that, which is precisely why google is using it here. Google is an american private company. Phone numbers have government mandated systems around the world that allow a individual to keep using them even when they lose their phone. Google uses it because it lets governments solve the identity problem in the fashion and to the degree they deem acceptable, and leaves google in the tech business. Some countries have issued ID cards which support encrypting and signing documents. If that becomes more widely practiced, then google could switch to that instead, but until then I imagine they'll keep using phone numbers.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#379

Post by slavik81 »

themitigating wrote: post #363
tsimionescu wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't find it paternalistic. The goal is to cut down on support costs by reducing the number of users who get hacked and need assistance regaining access to their accounts, and to force users to have a method of demonstrating they own the account even if they can't log in. That it confers some additional security to users is nice, but not really the end goal. So we should be mindful of Google's profit margins, in…

It's security vs homeless access to vital services. I think it's a diffiult line to draw

Keeping wrong people out is only half of what is required for security. You also have to let the right people in.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#380

Post by vorpalhex »

peatmoss wrote: post #248
warent wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it's more complicated than this. There have been nonprofit organizations and government initiatives to give homeless people space in unoccupied hotels for example. What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. In the USA, there are pretty much zero mental health resources for people in…

> What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. Citation very much needed here. This certainly does happen. But, I don’t believe this the general (i.e. typical) outcome. From what I understand talking to acquaintances who work in this area, wrecking the place is not the typical outcome. And property damage is generally cheaper to address than the constant provision of em…

At least a data point here - my city of Austin is buying a hotel to convert into housing for the homeless.

This has gone badly. The property sees intense vandalism and destruction, the neighbors are afraid for their safety, and the whole thing is an amazingly expensive boondoggle.

[0]: https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-hotel-purchased-homeless-s...

[1]: https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/16/austin-homel...

Post reply on HN