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Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

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Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#371

Post by dml2135 »

woeh wrote: post #135
Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

I was pleased to see recently that a couple of different brands at my local DIY store had interoperable batteries. I bought a small lawnmower which now uses the same battery as a cordless drill from another brand. The brands that joined are listed on their marketing site[0]. Edit: One of the companies has a slightly less obnoxious website which also lists brands[1] [0] https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technol…

Wow this is a great idea. I do have to say I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that none of the bigger brands in power tools look to be participating.

The only name I recognize there is Bosch, I've never had any of their tools but my perception is that they are a mid-tier brand. It would be great to see players like DeWalt, Milwaukee, and Makita do something like this.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#372

Post by Salgat »

Hamcha wrote: post #63
Salgat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they did with their manufacturers is a different issue, but in general they offer a lot more options than Apple. Android allows Manufacturers (such as Amazon and Samsung) to have their own app stores and allows for side loading apps, both of which are impossible with Apple.

You have it backward, Amazon and Samsung's own appstores are desperate attempts to get enough traction out of Play Store so that they are not forced to succumb to Google's demands. The issue here isn't Android not being open (which it is), the problem is Google having a lot of control (including full veto power) on devices shipping with Google Play Services, while making them an increasingly necessary part of Android…

Apple strictly prohibits any apps outside their app store. Google does not. Yes Google abuses their popularity, but it's leagues better than Apple.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#373

Post by jsnell »

antonymy wrote: post #284
saiya-jin wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not annual, but projected maybe over decade... once you lose the market you lost it also next years. Lets not forget its 500 million of above-average rich folks that use google services extensively. The fine would have to be in range of 100 billion for them to exit

Their annual revenue from the EU is only 17 billion dollars, as of 2021. The current fine is about a quarter of that. This is revenue, not profit. So this fine very likely impacted the bottom line for what Google is pulling out of the EU. And it was not even as big as they could've made it. It's very likely the EU refrained from the maximum fine amount because it would've pushed Google's EU operations firmly into the…

That's the quarterly revenue, not the annual.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#374

Post by oblio »

saurik wrote: post #232
nilsbunger wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2 is the same thing Microsoft got busted for by US antitrust in the late 90s. Microsoft had required computer vendors to NOT sell computers with other OSes (eg Linux). At one point they insisted computer vendors pay for a Windows license on all computers they shipped, even ones shipped without Windows.

AFAIK the idea isn't that you can't ship devices running other operating systems but that you can't ship devices running non-compliant forks of Android, which I do agree is nigh unto the same thing--as Android is open source and that's a decision Google already made--but I think is worth noting explicitly as others sometimes see it as different (both because it doesn't prevent a greenfield alternative, and as Google…

> I mean, they've already gone back hard on the level of openness they started with

From what I understand, AOSP is not dead, but it's definitely far behind the latest versions of Android. The default apps are not updated, the UI toolkit is behind, most of the new services used by everything in Android are the proprietary bits.

It's basically Darwin at this point, yeah, open source, but in no way shape or form if you build Darwin, do you get Mac OS.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#375

Post by ephbit »

crazygringo wrote: post #369
ephbit wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the difference between Sony requiring you to buy headphones together with the tape player, or Android requiring Google to be the default search? Sony and headphones together with tape player ... there's a synergy there, when they can sell them together, it's a small one though. (Selling two pieces of hardware together generates more turnover with one transaction.) With Android requiring Google to be the defa…

I just meant it as a rhetorical question... just to point out that what is obvious for one person, the opposite is obvious for another. And so just "following regulations" doesn't always necessarily have any kind of objective way to do it -- as evidenced by courts often disagreeing with each other in specific situations.

I think I understood what you were after, giving an example, that is.

When I read the example though, I immediately thought it didn't quite ring true. So I tried to explain to myself why and came up with what I wrote.

Even though there are obviously many examples one could give, where it'd indeed be difficult to see a difference, I didn't want to let this specific example go unchallenged. Why? Because it is so close to the actual topic (Google).

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#376

Post by oblio »

kernal wrote: post #359
slaw wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would live in a world with 2 mobile OS's iOS and Windows Phone. Android would land in Google Graveyard.

Windows Phone was always destined to fall. There is no scenario in which Windows Phone would not been beaten into irrelevance by Google and by Microsoft's own actions in undermining their underwhelming and unpopular mobile OS.

Well, this thread is in the parallel universe in which Google would have sold only its own Android devices. So no Android + LG, Sony, Samsung, Huawei, etc.

If you look at Google's hardware's capabilities, Android would have flopped immediately.

As bad as the org level issues were with Windows Phone, it would have still beaten Android-on-Google-hardware-only.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#377

Post by Kbelicius »

origin_path wrote: post #152
Normille wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The AOSP ecosystem has a healthy range of ROMs to choose from on many devices. But it's not true choice is it? It's just the same old same old with a different skin on top. Much the same as the similarly claimed 'choice' in Linux distros pretty much boils down to the same old same old collection of apps running on the same old same old collection of desktop environments. But with eleventy billion superficial skins l…

You can fork AOSP in arbitrary ways and have a pretty great OS. Most companies don't do this because they don't have any particular ideas about how to do Android's core differently - UI is one of the places where you can actually innovate and users will notice, so that's where the effort goes. But that's not Google's fault. They can't make Samsung have brilliant ideas about how to rearchitect the OS core.

> But that's not Google's fault. They can't make Samsung have brilliant ideas about how to rearchitect the OS core.

One of anticompetitive restrictions identified was:

> ‘anti-fragmentation agreements’, under which the operating licences necessary for the pre-installation of the Google Search and Play Store apps could be obtained by mobile device manufacturers only if they undertook not to sell devices running versions of the Android operating system not approved by Google;

So no, Samsung can't just fork AOSP.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#378

Post by oblio »

edgyquant wrote: post #273
tremon wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're accusing others of acting in bad faith you need to substantiate that. With a proper argument. Otherwise you're not acting in good faith yourself.

I wouldn’t use the term bad faith but it’s clear the EU wants American big tech out

The EU doesn't want big tech out. It wants big tech abusers out.

And guess what, most of those big tech abusers are American.

But if it helps with anything, it doesn't look too kindly upon Chinese companies, either.

It can't really do much about European big tech companies since there aren't that many left... and they're in enterprise markets where things work completely differently (enterprises can sue you themselves very efficiently if they're disadvantaged, thank you very much).

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#379

Post by gls2ro »

StingyJelly wrote: post #226
dahfizz wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, yes. But I am confident the EU would find other ways to extract fines from Google in that case.

As a counterexample there's Apple with not insignificant market share in Europe - pushing icloud, not supporting third party operating sysems or even sideloading, still keeping proprietary connector despite everyone else using usb-c, etc.

At the first Google search (irony) I found that apple is maybe around 30% maybe (depending on the source) a bit hight than Samsung which is pretty close. but when looking at iOS vs Android then we have 30% (iOS) vs 60% (Android).

this does not look at all even close to a monopoly from Apple.

As far as I see their power in Europe comes from the fact that competition is following them in some decisions.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#380

Post by oblio »

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #169
tmoravec wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights Are you sure EU has "pretty good track record" with these fines of Google, FB, et al.? If anything, I'd say the EU puts a mild theatre every now and then, and gives the US giants a free pass otherwise.

I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons the EU exists is to fine US tech companies instead of trying to compete

The standard business practice of many US tech companies is to go:

We have a ton of VC capital. Can we use this to price dump our way into the market or to do slightly illegal or very illegal things covered in great UI/UX/XD so that some consumers are our own side, and by the time they ban us, we're too big too fail and fines we get are lower than our profits?

Examples: Uber, Airbnb, LinkedIn, ...

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