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Who cares about diversity?

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#371

Post by api »

scifibestfi wrote: post #188

In 2018 The Atlantic explained this phenomenon, what the utility is, and correctly posited that it would not likely go away. TLDR; Status games and intra-elite jockeying among the overproduced elite. "Think about what it takes to claw your way into America’s elite strata. Unless you were born into the upper-middle class, your surest route is to pursue an elite education. To do that, it pays to be exquisitely sensitiv…

This suggests that if we got rid of this rhetoric something else would take its place as it fills a kind of market niche. There's a limited amount of space in elite institutions and thus fierce competition over the right to obtain these degrees, which have become (in some circles) the modern equivalent of writs of noble title. This creates demand for mechanisms that can be used to signal and play status games.

Also suggests why it shows up in high-status highly paid jobs like engineering, finance, executive suites, law, etc.

What was it a few generations ago? Patriotism? Being the correct race or religion instead of posturing about diversity?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#372

Post by [deleted] »

koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

[deleted]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#373

Post by koonsolo »

crackercrews wrote: post #345
koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

> But hey, once the world starts doing that bullshit, it's excellent for me. I'm a hetro white male, so there can be ony 1 reason why I was hired. This logic only makes sense looking backward, assuming you got hired.

Developers are in high demand in EU, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Besides, if you don't hire for skills but for optimizing some unrelated statistics, you will need plenty of good developers to clean up the mess.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#374

Post by RobertRoberts »

jrajav wrote: post #293
RobertRoberts wrote: post #225

True diversity would mean having to accept, even welcome, a MAGA wearing redneck onto the board of a black university. Therefore diversity discussions (almost always) are not about "diversity for everyone", but instead it's social cudgel for one side to use against another.

Sorry, no it doesn't. The point under discussion is affirmative action, that is, specifically targeting and aiding underrepresented groups, so you're just misunderstanding the premise in the first place - but also, to say 'a MAGA wearing redneck' and 'black university' specifically, you clearly get that it's a racist in a race-specific context. The thing nearly everyone tries to gloss over when they pull this "Well w…

That is exactly my point, "diversity" by its very definition can't also mean exclusion. If it does, who's rules for exclusion are you using? (a diverse set of rules?)

This is the problem with this discussion, I can't stand MAGA ideals, I think they are ridiculous, but you assumed I support it because I used it to point out a flaw in a popular (but flawed) idea.

It's a very real example to show true diversity can't exist in our society across diverse groups.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#375

Post by belorn »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #178
missingrib wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This tone is very common in academic philosophy. I would characterize it as being low in rhetoric and extremely blunt. I don't really see how it sounds like "a high school sophomore".

In general the argument template is "If you're not 100% committed to realizing a more extreme version of your mission statement than the status quo, then you're being hypocritical and cannot be taken seriously." We see the same thing pop up in, "You don't like capitalism, yet you still participate in it," and "You don't like cars, yet you still drive places." It's the sort of tired teenager type argument that doesn't…

Sweden had an election yesterday, and I can't think of a single political subject where political opponents do not accuse the other side of being insincere. Environment, taxes, law and order, immigration, education, healthcare, elder care... "You say you want X, yet you still say/do/vote Y" would match the intended message in about 95% of every statement being made when a politician is describing an other politician politics.

Political debates would be much more interesting if they weren't allowed to do this. It would be a bit like the rule that one should never discuss the speaker, only the content. It would really help against polarization.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#376

Post by bavell »

I've been watching Peter Boghossian's YT channel since I found it a few weeks ago, it has some great intellectually stimulating discussions around DEI and other hot-button topics that are extremely interesting, such as "Should the consideration of race be removed from the college admissions process?" [0].

He goes around to different colleges and asks the students on their beliefs in a reverse QA style, facilitating the conversation. The best discussions are when there are students who disagree and are on opposite ends of the spectrum on a topic.

[0] https://youtu.be/a8yIFGNoFIU

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#377

Post by petilon »

EarlKing wrote: post #365
petilon wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the case. Name a university where they ask for diversity essays in order to reduce the percentage of whites. The reverse is often true. For example, many universities use it to control asian population.

Ah, so it's not racist because it only discriminates against the non-majority portion of the proletariat. How very bougie of you. The fact that you don't see that as a problem tells me all I need to know.

I didn't say it is not racist, and I didn't say it is not a problem.

Public universities, especially, must use objective criteria. Students need to be able to control their own destiny through hard work. That's a basic principle of fairness that should apply in this land of opportunity. No "shaping" of the student body by universities that receive funding from taxpayers, because that is unfair to students. Imagine being denied admission by the only good public university in your state, not because your grades or test scores are not good enough, but because you didn't fit in whatever "shape" the university decided is appropriate for that year!

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#378

Post by bavell »

rootusrootus wrote: post #57
origin_path wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

> It has been right wing dogma for quite a long time that education is bad

You're confusing being educated with being elitist. Being elitist is what the right thinks is bad, not education.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#379

Post by matthewrobertso »

tptacek wrote: post #332
matthewrobertso wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you highlight where you made that argument the first time? I read your first comment as entirely concerned with tone and don't see where you are discussing lack of engagement with an argument.

It's a 127 word comment (not counting the snarky aside at the bottom), of which approximately 40% of the words make the points you're looking for directly, in a pair of sentences, one in the first paragraph and one in the second. I think you might have to not want to see them not to see them.

It might be obvious to you but I sincerely don't see it.

The first paragraph is about the source reducing things to axioms. The second paragraph is clearly about tone.

Where is the criticism of the content and not the tone of the article?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#380

Post by michaelwww »

koonsolo wrote: post #352
michaelwww wrote: post #325

I care about diversity because different cultures bring different ideas and skills to the situation. When I get in a jam, I don't want just one idea for getting out of it, I want many.

Can you give an example on how a white male software developer would develop something differently than for example an asian woman, and how the cultural difference would translate into a different approach of writing code?

Man, how I wish all my problems were software problems
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