Nobody wants to teach anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#371

Post by pclmulqdq » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #349

pclmulqdq wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is ever paid for the value that they create. Software engineers are estimated to be worth several million dollars per year in value. Also, the average kindergarten teacher probably generates a lot less than $300k per year.

Do software engineers just spontaneously come into existence? Or do they begin their education with kindergarten teachers, and progress though to the professors that teach them at college? If a software engineer is contributing millions of dollars in value each year, they are doing it on the backs of the giants that taught and coached them to get to where they are today.

If you want to follow the value chain all the way down, why not attribute the value of that software engineer to the professors who taught those kindergarten teachers to be good teachers? Or the kindergarten teachers who taught those professors?

The truth of where the value to society comes from is somewhere between the "shoulders of giants" myth (that everything is obvious in light of what came before, and nobody really creates any value) and the "lone genius" myth (that value is created solely by bright individuals).

Some component of the value that we attribute to a person likely comes from their teachers, but it may be 0 (or negative - lots of teachers demoralize their students too). However, a significant portion comes from them.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#372

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #124

zmgsabst wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$13k per student is more than the cost of undergraduate education, at $12.5k per student for the University of Washington. https://www.washington.edu/opb/tuition-fees/current-tuition-...

It's $40K if you select "non-resident", which I assume is because the in-state tuition is taxpayer subsidized.

[deleted]

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#373

Post by DangitBobby » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #181

pnf wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes someone qualified to be a teacher is also qualified to be a software engineer. Have you met a lot of urban public school teachers?

What has “urban” to do with it?

I think a more diverse student body, likely one with a wide range of parental income and possibly including some kids who are members or gangs or is just more likely to have a few actually violent (,mentally ill, narcissistic, borderline personality disorder, etc.) kids, with a higher student to teacher ratio, will be much more challenging than a small high-school with 400 kids that more or less fall into "middle class and above with a spattering of low income."

EDIT: found an interesting "day in the life" article by a self-labeled urban teacher.

https://theeducatorsroom.com/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-teacher-...

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#374

Post by MerelyMortal » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #166

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's $40K if you select "non-resident", which I assume is because the in-state tuition is taxpayer subsidized.

Why would non-resident apply to the comparison of local schools? My understanding is that you have non-residents subsidize things such as scholarship programs — but that in-state is fairly close to costs. State money appears to be a relatively small fraction of their incomes — and is smaller than the increase in their financial position. https://finance.uw.edu/uwar/annualreport2021.pdf

Because that's the "actual" cost, not the tax-subsidized cost.

For in-state, the state is paying approx $27k and the student pays approx $13k, versus in k-12 the state is only paying $13k and that's all they get.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#375

Post by erdos4d » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

_vdpp wrote: post #98

A few random thoughts: 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. 3. Teachers frequently complain about how they are unappreciated, yet children spend _12 years_ in their care. Why do people come up to them and say they hated s…

> 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others.

They absolutely are. I taught math as a university lecturer while I was finishing my PhD. I taught one Algebra course and one Geometry course to education majors. These were both literally just high school math courses and the people I taught were mostly not able to do the work. Yes, literally high school math and over half flunked the courses outright. That is just pathetic. I was told to pass 85% of the class, so most got curved right into a classroom anyway, against my wishes. This is what teaches your kids. I can also anecdotally report that they were clearly the dumbest people I ever ran into teaching. Bad English, can't think in a straight line, and ready to argue at the first sign that you might enforce standards and fail their pitiful "work". They were perfect for a bureaucratic job that rewards idiots.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#376

Post by re_norway » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #72

ehnto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel that the private system is taking all of the good educators and administrators? America isn't the only country with a private/public school ecosystem, yet other countries are able to maintain quality public schooling while it seems America struggles.

A lot of Western non-US countries honestly don’t have a lot of attractive private sector businesses. Small nations with strong public education are very unique. For example Norway only has 5 million citizens, extremely low immigration, a mono-culture and mono-ethnicity, and earns a huge amount of money from selling fossil fuels which are then funneled to public use. Yet the left in America pretends the Nordic model c…

Re: Teaching in Norway

https://rebekahjbuchanan.com/2018/10/21/teaching-in-norway

The environment Rebekah describes seems like a modern US tech business. Everyone is expected to be where they're needed, treat each other with respect and focus on their work. Sometimes I wonder why successful businesses can create the environment schools can't and then remind myself that businesses (and private schools) can easily exclude troublemakers, malcontents and people who don't fit in for whatever reason. Also some of the things you mention (e.g. mono-culture) make it easier to create an environment suitable for learning.

It shouldn't be a priori to honor the private sector and shit on the public sector but as long as we do we shouldn't be surprised at the results. Teaching and education simply needs to be valued more than it is. We shouldn't have to beg people to do the job. Instead we should reward and honor the profession so well that we can set high standards for teachers and still have a surplus of applicants.

Perhaps if we compensated teachers more like police or firefighters and required advanced credentials as more successful countries do our schools would be better.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#377

Post by kleer001 » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

... in the United States.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#378

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #185

The United States seems hellbent on sabotaging education. This is not going to help future generations, and is going to put the likelihood of ongoing hegemony into question - over time, how can that compete with nations that continually invest in their population?

I mean, yes in general, but there is simply no mystery here. US already competes by accepting immigrants, and US will be able to compete in the future as long as it is attractive to immigrants and keeps accepting more immigrants than anyone else. US definitely should invest in education, but US hegemony can be secure without doing so.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#379

Post by grog454 » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #309

_vdpp wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are differentiated classes such a taboo? I feel like a more trades-oriented approach with kids who don’t have the desire, motivation or aptitude for college would lead to more engagement and give those kids a better chance at success.

> Why are differentiated classes such a taboo? The concern is that they become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You get sorted into the lower grade, perhaps because of maturing more slowly in the early years, or a home environment non-conducive to study due to two working parents, or just economic disadvantages like having to live further away from the school and therefore spending time commuting that other kids are spend…

> The concern is that they become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

An effective education is ultimately the student's responsibility. If we could somehow teach that at an early age, lot of these problems become irrelevant.

As a freshman I was placed in a geometry class in high school that included several seniors that obviously came to class high and some that spoke 0 English. I asked for more difficult problems in class, unaware that an advanced geometry class even existed at the school.

After taking a precalc class as a junior (which was after I took a precalc summer class at a local university), I was told I would be placed in AP calc AB.

I literally had to accost the teacher after class and say that was unacceptable. He said if I could convince the Calc teacher I should be in BC calc, I could take it. As luck would have it, the calc teacher was my former geometry teacher. I finished AP calc BC with an A and a 5/5 on the AP exam, but what if I hadn't been so lucky (knew the teacher) or so pissed off with my education up to that point that I had respected the precalc teacher's decision?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#380

Post by Jill_the_Pill » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

gshubert17 wrote: post #262

bombcar wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that almost all of the success of private schools can be ascribed to being able to kick students out and not requiring fifty billion dollars in degrees to teach.

I taught computing for 13 years at a public charter high-school. It doesn't charge tuition (it's a public school), but does have a dress code, and a commitment to a curriculum based on E. D. Hirsch's core knowledge program in grade school and on classical, liberal arts great books in high school. Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. They hire teachers wit…

Open lottery admission isn't the same as universal retention. Some charters and even magnets later "counsel out" admitted kids who act up, perform poorly on tests, or need expensive extra services, saying the school isn't the right fit for them. Traditional district public schools don't have this option and usually wind up taking back the kids who wash out of the choice schools.