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Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

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Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#371

Post by yakubin »

Gareth321 wrote: post #365

Yes, absolutely. From Rotten: Mulan - Critics: 73 - Audience: 47 The Last Jedi - Critics: 91 - Audience: 42 Captain Marvel - Critics: 79 - Audience: 45 It's clear that audiences - and you can read this as "people who like movies and are willing to leave a review" - and critics are miles apart. This prompts the common retort: "so what?" I continue to argue that the purpose of movie critics, for many decades, has been…

The movies you listed fail in a different way. There are plenty of explosions and fight scenes in The Last Jedi and Captain Marvel. What they do share is that the main character is an underdeveloped Mary Sue, without character flaws, without weaknesses they must overcome. They're just made awesome from the start. It probably stems from the inability of current Hollywood to portray female characters as having any weaknesses at all, that would be heresy. The result is that it's hard to empathize with and care about the main character. They don't have any dimensionality.

Of the ones you listed I watched The Last Jedi and Captain Marvel. I know what I wrote is also true for Mulan thanks to friends who watched it and the Critical Drinker. He has a couple good films on YouTube actually demonstrating this aspect of modern films:

- Mulan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIH-eFqBLP4>

- Star Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSj6wEm4zZY>

- Captain Marvel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKHEjpFF6J0>

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#372

Post by unfocussed_mike »

pronlover723 wrote: post #307
majormajor wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, Taken gets 59% with critics on Rotten Tomatoes. It was a hugely important and impactful film. It basically spawned/revived a whole subgenre of action film. I wouldn't be surprised if 41% of the general population didn't much like Taken either. I've never had a desire to watch it a second time, for instance, which places it pretty far down my personal list of movies I've seen. So you can think it's "to…

> I've never had a desire to watch it a second time Is that a good criteria for whether a film is good or not. There are plenty of films I never want to watch again but I thought they were good. Conversely, there's are arguably stupid but fun films I watch over and over even though they are full of flaws, bad acting, bad writing, etc...

> Is that a good criteria for whether a film is good or not.

I don't rewatch films as a rule but I do sometimes rewatch films with people who have not seen that film.

There are films like Dancer In The Dark, Grave Of The Fireflies, or Dogville that I simply cannot watch a second time because of the precise, agonising emotional turmoil they create. I will recommend this experience to everyone, and they too will watch it only once and recommend it to others.

Then there are films like Taken that I would never watch because they are dreadful, hateful trash.

I would consider the former list to be beautiful, painful exceptions to the idea that a film that can be watched endlessly is a great work. And even then I might be persuaded to watch them with someone I really loved. Perhaps. Though I'd have to love someone a lot to willingly watch through the end of Dancer again.

I would not be so enthusiastic about spending time with anyone who joyfully rewatches Taken.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#373

Post by makeitdouble »

watwut wrote: post #354
makeitdouble wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am getting your point, you are basically positing that critics are inherently disconnected for different reasons and we should see them as some fringe freaks more than anything ? PS: to put it out there, there’s people working at beer makers tasting beer samples every single day to check it is exactly the right taste. Ideally every day it has the same taste, if it differs they’ll do what’s needed to bring it bac…

> If I am getting your point, you are basically positing that critics are inherently disconnected for different reasons and we should see them as some fringe freaks more than anything ? They are writing for different audiences. That does not make them "freaks". And their audience is more biased toward a.) those more deeply interested in movies b.) those seeking out of mainstream weirder things. People only casually i…

I agree with your take on platform where there is near 0 barrier to entry. Netflix for instance, or TV programming. Casual people will be less willing to go through reviews to device on a piece, and they'll also probably have had other customer reviews or view count guide them in their choice.

It is albeit different if to watch the movie you need to carve 3 hours of your time-off, go to a theater and pay 15€. Instead of randomly choosing a movie currently airing in your local theater, you might want to know if it's something you have any interest for (Imagine watching Edge Of Tomorrow thinking it will be some Star Trooper like spectacle). In that setting I think people expect critics adjust their assessment to the target public of the movie and give an accessible review of the piece. Which is super hard, but that's what they are expected to do.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#374

Post by unfocussed_mike »

casefields wrote: post #294
unfocussed_mike wrote: post #207

No, I don't think so. I think they get it largely right. How many reviews of movies have you seen from a senior, experienced reviewer got a film really totally wrong? I don't mean "hated a movie that genre fans will like", or "dunked on a trashy movie", because in almost all cases those reviews acknowledge their biases and even the people who like that sort of thing will get the picture. I mean: really wrong. In rece…

>How many reviews of movies have you seen from a senior, experienced reviewer got a film really totally wrong? Tons. Even legendary critics like Ebert got movies wrong. He gave thumbs down to Full Metal Jacket, Blue Velvet, The Thing, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, The Usual Suspects, Ace Ventura, Tommy Boy, and many more.

Mm, but Ebert is now decades into the past, isn't he. I think critics are generally aligning better with audience understanding.

It's ironic that Ebert misunderstood a film like Fast Times, considering he co-wrote a film with bloomin' Russ Meyer isn't it!

I will have to look up those reviews (as a Brit I was not routinely exposed to Ebert; for us it was Barry Norman).

I don't expect film critics to like every movie, and I do expect them to engage in criticism of films they like, for example of weak parts of dialogue, of spoiled shots, etc.

Unpopular opinion: Blue Velvet is a bad film.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#375

Post by unfocussed_mike »

djur wrote: post #301
casefields wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How many reviews of movies have you seen from a senior, experienced reviewer got a film really totally wrong? Tons. Even legendary critics like Ebert got movies wrong. He gave thumbs down to Full Metal Jacket, Blue Velvet, The Thing, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, The Usual Suspects, Ace Ventura, Tommy Boy, and many more.

I was nodding along with you until you got to Ace Ventura, which is probably regarded worse today than it was at the time.

It intrigues me that as time goes on, Jim Carrey will become better known for arty seriousness than for the box-office smash gurning that got him to the screen from late night talk show comic slots.

Like the opposite of Leslie Nielsen: a man now really only recognised for comedy, when he got his start in comedy by satirising his own serious roles in mainstream potboilers.

I only wish for the same for Adam Sandler, who made one film (Punch Drunk Love) that so completely changed who he could be that it might one day, maybe, perhaps, just possibly, correct the damage he did to western culture with Little Nicky. ;-)

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#377

Post by goto11 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #365

Yes, absolutely. From Rotten: Mulan - Critics: 73 - Audience: 47 The Last Jedi - Critics: 91 - Audience: 42 Captain Marvel - Critics: 79 - Audience: 45 It's clear that audiences - and you can read this as "people who like movies and are willing to leave a review" - and critics are miles apart. This prompts the common retort: "so what?" I continue to argue that the purpose of movie critics, for many decades, has been…

> This leads us to today, where critic reviews are functionally useless for the broad audience

This is rather over the top, since the article clearly shows reviews and audience ratings does correlate, especially towards the top.

But it is always interesting with movies where the difference of opinion is starkest.

Note that the "audience ratings" does not always correlate with the average audience. Especially with divisive movies like TLJ or the Ghostbusters reboot, disgruntled fans run campaigns to get the score down. TLJ is still one of the highest grossing movies in history, so the audience rating putting it significantly lower than say John Carter or Snakes on a Plane is clearly not representative of the general movie going audience.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#378

Post by drnonsense42 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #365

Yes, absolutely. From Rotten: Mulan - Critics: 73 - Audience: 47 The Last Jedi - Critics: 91 - Audience: 42 Captain Marvel - Critics: 79 - Audience: 45 It's clear that audiences - and you can read this as "people who like movies and are willing to leave a review" - and critics are miles apart. This prompts the common retort: "so what?" I continue to argue that the purpose of movie critics, for many decades, has been…

Yikes. Call me philistine, but seeing that Last Jedi score peels the scab off the idea that there is any intellectual value remaining in their job.

I’m not sure about the critics of yore, but, as all of your scores evince, I am drawing the impression that modern critics either 1. self-select as part of group of certain demographics or 2. deliberately pander to that group of certain demographics “as the wind heads in that direction”. Not really something an intellectually honest individual would find value in, and if they belong to your tribe, you can probably find more well-written diatribes on Twitter.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#379

Post by noisy_boy »

yakubin wrote: post #371
Gareth321 wrote: post #365

Yes, absolutely. From Rotten: Mulan - Critics: 73 - Audience: 47 The Last Jedi - Critics: 91 - Audience: 42 Captain Marvel - Critics: 79 - Audience: 45 It's clear that audiences - and you can read this as "people who like movies and are willing to leave a review" - and critics are miles apart. This prompts the common retort: "so what?" I continue to argue that the purpose of movie critics, for many decades, has been…

The movies you listed fail in a different way. There are plenty of explosions and fight scenes in The Last Jedi and Captain Marvel. What they do share is that the main character is an underdeveloped Mary Sue, without character flaws, without weaknesses they must overcome. They're just made awesome from the start. It probably stems from the inability of current Hollywood to portray female characters as having any weak…

> What they do share is that the main character is an underdeveloped Mary Sue, without character flaws, without weaknesses they must overcome.

Regarding Rey in context of The Last Jedi, did we watch the same movie? She was basically a mixture of having doubt and uncertainty and being troubled for the large part of the movie. Only in the confrontation with Kylo, we see her inner strength but even that was tempered with her vulnerability - its not like she vanquished Kylo with a smirk.

Re: Are film critics losing sync with audiences?

#380

Post by goto11 »

yakubin wrote: post #371
Gareth321 wrote: post #365

Yes, absolutely. From Rotten: Mulan - Critics: 73 - Audience: 47 The Last Jedi - Critics: 91 - Audience: 42 Captain Marvel - Critics: 79 - Audience: 45 It's clear that audiences - and you can read this as "people who like movies and are willing to leave a review" - and critics are miles apart. This prompts the common retort: "so what?" I continue to argue that the purpose of movie critics, for many decades, has been…

The movies you listed fail in a different way. There are plenty of explosions and fight scenes in The Last Jedi and Captain Marvel. What they do share is that the main character is an underdeveloped Mary Sue, without character flaws, without weaknesses they must overcome. They're just made awesome from the start. It probably stems from the inability of current Hollywood to portray female characters as having any weak…

The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker both have the same main character. But the difference critic/audience ratings are stark. Critics rate The Last Jedi significantly higher than the audience average, while they rate Rise of Skywalker significantly lower.

The difference is not in the main character, the difference is in how the movies relate to the established conventions of the franchise.

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