Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being good to employees is in my experience not that clearcut. Yes, companies spend money on social events to make the employees feel good about the company. But they won't spend any significant amount of money to keep valued employees, which of course makes said employees look elsewhere. As an employee you are nearly always better off switching jobs every 18 months, as staying in the same job loses you money. I wish…
> But they won't spend any significant amount of money to keep valued employees, which of course makes said employees look elsewhere. Isn't it rather the other way round: you should be very careful to invest too much money into employees who are willing to quit?
Is my advice too mercenary?
371–380 of 390 posts
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are talking past (way past!) the point of OP. The point of OP is about a time where local communities mattered more than global output. When those in power were close enough to the common folk to the point where they could face consequences of their abuse. A time where societies had much higher levels of trust. OP is not talking about "relinquishing the responsibilities to others". Quite the opposite. It's much e…
> The point of OP is about a time where local communities mattered more than global output. Correction, a time when companies didn't have an easy and clear path to global output. > When those in power were close enough to the common folk to the point where they could face consequences of their abuse. I'm not sure that's ever been the norm anywhere in the world throughout history. I definitely don't think it was the r…
No, you don't get to change what I said to fit your worldview. The 70's and the 80's had tons of multinational companies that didn't treat their employees like cattle, and that treated each of their branches as its community.
> We just view the past with rose-tinted glasses (...) If you want actual evidence of wrongdoing, it's trivially easy to find.
It's curious why your cynicism doesn't cut both ways...
Just as it is easy to find evidence of corruption at all levels of government.
> But in a democracy they all have power to elect local representatives, and if they rely on their representatives instead of a mostly unaccountable company, they can exert control the outcome of situations if they don't like where things appear to be going.
There are a lot more "ifs" here:
- If the local representatives are not in the pocket of the corporations. - If the local representatives are not part of the elite with different interests from the common folk. - If the local representatives are not just using their current term as a launching pad for a bigger point. - If the community is cohesive enough to not have individuals just thinking for themselves, or (worse) divided into polarized feuds and make them waste all their political energy into hurting each other.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#373Small aside, reading all these conversations: I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those. But there is also a huge contingent of people who do regular waged labor here, whether FAANG or freelance. Beyond any political differences, I t…
> I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I've been reading HN for years and I would assume 90% of the comment section or more is people who only want to be employees. I hate to say it, but HN isn't a great place for genuine startu…
This seems rather pro-worker to me.
Though he is of course very pro-business as well. Maybe the difference is that some people think you can be both?
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The point of OP is about a time where local communities mattered more than global output. Correction, a time when companies didn't have an easy and clear path to global output. > When those in power were close enough to the common folk to the point where they could face consequences of their abuse. I'm not sure that's ever been the norm anywhere in the world throughout history. I definitely don't think it was the r…
> Correction, a time when companies didn't have an easy and clear path to global output. No, you don't get to change what I said to fit your worldview. The 70's and the 80's had tons of multinational companies that didn't treat their employees like cattle, and that treated each of their branches as its community. > We just view the past with rose-tinted glasses (...) If you want actual evidence of wrongdoing, it's tr…
And were those companies acting as stewards of small communities, taking some of the role of local governments? If not I'm not sure how it applies.
> It's curious why your cynicism doesn't cut both ways...
> Just as it is easy to find evidence of corruption at all levels of government.
It does, and I agree. The difference is that with elected officials you have a mechanism to do something about it. How do you change the agenda of a company that controls the economy of the town you live in? You're not on the board, you can't feasibly get enough of the stock (if it's even public) to sway their strategy.
I will lay out my argument very clearly, again, so there's no confusion, and I will make some parts explicit that I left out that people seem to be making assumptions on.
- For any group in power, you cannot control their future actions. Any person that acts in a way you agree with today, may not act that way tomorrow. That extends to all politicians and all management of companies.
- Because of this neither a company, or interest group, or individual, whether elected or not, can be relied on to work in your interest in perpetuity. I do not view a governing body or a company in any way as superior or inferior to each other because both can go bad.
- Having some way to incentivize or change those in power is important because of the above.
- Citizens of a democracy have some power to do this. People that rely on a non-governmental body for this are thus relinquishing some of their control to affect whether those in power if they are working against their interest.
- Therefore in the absence of evidence that a specific governing body is better or worse than some company in meeting the needs of a community if given the resources of that community (e.g. lessened tax burden and favorable treatment by the community and local government), choosing the apparatus that you have more control over is the better choice.
I am not making any claim that an elected government at any specific instance of time is inherently more likely than a company to act beneficially for a community, but I wholeheartedly believe that since the community can change that local government, they are a better choice to have the power.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I just think a lot of static gets injected into these discussions about wage/employers/comp on HN because a large majority of the commenters here are either currently business owners, or founders, or trying to be either of those I've been reading HN for years and I would assume 90% of the comment section or more is people who only want to be employees. I hate to say it, but HN isn't a great place for genuine startu…
I thought "charge more" was in at least in part about patio11 encouraging people to negotiate for higher salaries, and not sell themselves short? This seems rather pro-worker to me. Though he is of course very pro-business as well. Maybe the difference is that some people think you can be both?
Not originally. It was about operating a SaaS and charging your customers more. Straight from the man himself back in 2006: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/08/14/you-can-probably-stand-...
The pivot toward salary negotiation stuff came later, presumably because there's a much bigger audience for employee-directed writing on Hacker News than there is for startup founder advice.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's pretty clear that it did...on paper... Didn't actually destroy anything in practice other than the formalization of that unit
If it is pretty clear that it did then you’ll have no problem finding sources that can prove that it occurred, that also take into account the targeted imprisonment that the black community has/had faced since emancipation. Anyone who looks at the black community in the US being destabilized and blames _welfare_ as the cause while ignoring that the legal system imprisons black men at a higher rate than white men rega…
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it is pretty clear that it did then you’ll have no problem finding sources that can prove that it occurred, that also take into account the targeted imprisonment that the black community has/had faced since emancipation. Anyone who looks at the black community in the US being destabilized and blames _welfare_ as the cause while ignoring that the legal system imprisons black men at a higher rate than white men rega…
I read the comment you're replying to as saying it didn't actually destroy anything, it's just easy to infer that from what's visible in records (e.g. statistics). "Didn't actually destroy anything in practice" pretty clearly puts it as against the idea that it destroyed anything though, to my eyes.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who has experienced both systems, the fact Canada covers all is great but there are big issues with wait times and coverage gaps (in some provinces).
Oh absolutely. If you don't have an emergency you will have to wait. But man, when you do have a medical emergency, it's great not having to think about whether you're going to have to remortgage your house, sell your kidneys, put your kids up for adoption or reconsider all of your life plans. Personally I think Canada is a little bit over-dogmatic about rejecting a parallel private system entirely: I know there are…
Keep in mind that medical bankruptcy isn't unknown in Canada either - not being able to work is a bigger cause of medical bankruptcy than medical bills themselves.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
The obvious difference is that the employees are free to change jobs at any time. Yes, they may need to move if there are literally no other jobs in town, but that's not an option serfs had in a fiefdom. I'll also point out that maybe fiefdoms aren't as bad as you think. Don't get me wrong, I think we're way better off now, but I'm sure many rulers were just as generous and caring as these business owners. And it's h…
> The obvious difference is that the employees are free to change jobs at any time. Yes, they may need to move if there are literally no other jobs in town, but that's not an option serfs had in a fiefdom. You misunderstand my point, and possibly the discussion. If the company is large enough to be a majority employer in the area and much of the social works of the area are provided by the company, then regardless of…
I'm not sure what that adds to your post besides to antagonize. I'd respectfully suggest rethinking that as an opener on future comments.
I don't disagree with most of your post, and I don't think you seem to disagree with mine, preface aside. Yes, it's still difficult, but I think there is a world of difference between being under physical duress versus being very inconvenienced. Keeping the analogy, it's very inconvenient to change even a normal job, and we are held hostage with things like healthcare. That's fief like too. Scale matters.
Re: Is my advice too mercenary?
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experiences while at Cisco about 4-5 years ago: 1st experience: Told my boss I am leaving. My boss’s boss calls me in a room , tells me he has some great projects for me and that we will work together on them. I agree. Turns out it was his last day! 2nd experience: Similar situation, told my boss I am going to a startup. Boss’s boss calls me and gives me a lecture about how it is a bad idea to go to a startup. I l…
I can't imagine what would cause a person to act like that, and on his last day/week of work! Some kind of psycopathy?