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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#371

Post by tehwebguy »

foxyv wrote: post #133
joncp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like: "Hey boss, remember JFK? It would be a real shame if something like that happened to you. Or your family."

How long do you think the CIA would remain as a legitimate organization if something like that happened? All it would take is one public statement by a president that CIA had threatened them and the organization would come down like a house of cards. The entire leadership would be in handcuffs and trying to explain away treason to the FBI who would happily hand them over to military intelligence organizations to rend…

You are saying this in a thread for an article about how the CIA uses human beings as torture testers, where do you think the line is for them? lmao

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#372

Post by Gollapalli »

I think it’s worth noting that the United States has not won a war since the CIA was formed. They seem a useless liability that gives us a bad name.

Perhaps we should move intelligence work back under the domain of the military, how it was before 1941. We could put the marines in charge of the CIA’s mission, that mission being expeditionary intelligence (and not torturing people on black sites).

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#373

Post by Gollapalli »

catchclose8919 wrote: post #19

...isn't the whole idea of such "back sites" that once anyone gets into them, they are NEVER getting out alive? Torture and atrocities asside, I'd imagine most organized crime syndicates run tighter ships (eg. the standard dissolve the bodies of torture victims + kill the "torture service providers" too at regular intervals then re-recruit new ones etc.) ...this seem so beyond sloppy it's clearly a political s throwi…

Honestly, that’s the worst part of it. Sometimes people need to die and ugly things need to happen, but our overreliance on these means and how frankly unquiet our “quiet work” is is just sickening. I don’t know what’s involved in this kind of work, but if these are our best I’m very disappointed.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#374

Post by wolverine876 »

naoqj wrote: post #150
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

Absolutely. Morality has great value to human freedom, safety, and prosperity. Humans are social beings, and where morality is preserved they are more free, more safe, and more prosperous. People with less political power are more vulnerable to immorality; it's the vulnerable, not the powerful, who suffer.

That high ground also sets the standard for society. Some people will mock 'moral' leaders, but that leader sets the example for all. If that leader lowered their morals, the maximum, the example of what was possible, would also be lowered for all, to everyone's detriment.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#375

Post by monocasa »

refurb wrote: post #367
monocasa wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries other than the US that don't welcome ICC authority do you think are doing it for noble goals?

A better question is - which countries that did sign the Rome agreement will conveniently back out when one of their own citizens is up for charges that they don't agree with? The ICC is no different than the UN - an international body that is a convenient cover for powerful nations to cloak themselves in. Charges against African despots? Well Europe is on board for that! Charges for war crimes during the Afghan war?…

Not really, because my question showed the false dichotomy in how you're trying to frame it. When all other countries we'd consider the closest things to paragons of democracy we have signed it, it paints a pretty clear picture. That picture remains clear even when despotic regimes are about 50/50 on it.

Pointing in the direction of a hypothetical doesn't really change that.

> Charges against African despots? Well Europe is on board for that!

And Europeans as seen from the trials of the war crimes that occurred following the breakup of Yugoslavia.

> Charges for war crimes during the Afghan war? Whoa there! We never agreed to that!

And yet the ICC has been investigating war crimes during the Afghan war, until the US started sanctioning ICC employees. They have since restarted the investigations. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/prosecutor-se...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#376

Post by Gollapalli »

dls2016 wrote: post #108
jonnybgood wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that work exactly? CIA: If you don’t let us torture people just because then we’ll make a scandal of you. President: Oh no. I guess I have to let you. I have no power whatsoever. Can’t get the FBI on it, because they’re blackmailing me too! The US government and intelligence agencies is not like what you see in the movies.

> How does that work exactly? Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think it was coincidence that he had power of attorney over Les Wexner, who was involved with the notorious Southern Air Transport? There are many other intelligence connections, for instance Maxwell and her father. The CIA is really the worst institution in the US government.

You speak as though Epstein and Maxwell were _American_ intelligence.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#377

Post by refurb »

the_af wrote: post #369
refurb wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you’re not American. At least not in the way the word is used today.

"Sorry" how? Don't feel sorry for me, I'm happy to remain American and will also always be considered so by my fellow countrymen. But the point is that using these words, "American" and "anti-American", to refer to how people across the world choose to bow down -- or refuse to -- to the way things are handled by the US, is absurd. If you don't look up to the US you're not anti-American. Nobody is "anti-American" just…

I’m sorry in the sense you’re using the word “American” incorrectly.

American = Citizen of the USA

I mean, you do you, but don’t get mad when people don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#378

Post by wolverine876 »

worik wrote: post #255
thereisnospork wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A catastrophe for America (Americans) or for the countries listed and their people? Only one of those is relevant.[0] My greater point here is that global politics is an inherently amoral game. By extension a morality-based strategy is inherently sub-optimal. [0]addendum: To be clear there are definitely arguments to be made that some or all of them weren't good for Americans (e.g. loss of global goodwill may have re…

War is not an extension of "diplomacy by other means". War is a crime. The war crimes I listed were a catastrophe for everybody connected.

> War is not an extension of "diplomacy by other means".

FWIW: War is defined by Clausewitz as the continuation of politics by other means, not of diplomacy. (It's probably the most famous theory of warfare, by the preeminent theorist.)

Clausewitz wasn't normalizing war, but explaining it: it's politics using violent means. If you don't understand the fundemental political nature of warfare then you will make major mistakes and many more will die and suffer. Those mistakes still happen: You can see that the US in Afghanistan lacked a clear vision and strategy for a political outcome. In those countries you see the results of defeating an enemy militarily and not politically. Russia, even if they 'win' militarily, will have a very big political problem in Ukraine.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#379

Post by refurb »

monocasa wrote: post #375
refurb wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better question is - which countries that did sign the Rome agreement will conveniently back out when one of their own citizens is up for charges that they don't agree with? The ICC is no different than the UN - an international body that is a convenient cover for powerful nations to cloak themselves in. Charges against African despots? Well Europe is on board for that! Charges for war crimes during the Afghan war?…

Not really, because my question showed the false dichotomy in how you're trying to frame it. When all other countries we'd consider the closest things to paragons of democracy we have signed it, it paints a pretty clear picture. That picture remains clear even when despotic regimes are about 50/50 on it. Pointing in the direction of a hypothetical doesn't really change that. > Charges against African despots? Well Eu…

That was a nice dodge of my counter-argument. By your own theory, since most “beacons of democracy” are a part of the UN, clearly they adhere to all decisions by that body?

Of course they don’t.

My point stands - if the ICC starts charging powerful members states citizens you’ll pretty quickly watch support crumble. That’s why the African countries are pulling out - it’s pretty clear how the court will be used and it won’t be pointed towards its most powerful members.

Rather than join that circus, the US would rather bow out.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#380

Post by Diesel555 »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

> Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs.

And yet it is worth noting that the US government released this information under their own policies to the detriment of the "political class" and their own credibility worldwide. This is an important aspect of Democracies. I doubt you'd see the PRC releasing documents about the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region which will for sure be received as bad any time soon.

(This is not said to justify the acts in the article to be clear, but to point out a property of Democracies which is important)

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