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Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

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Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#371
post #346
post #66

My solution to this problem would be legislation that allows customers, if they wish to, to return devices for a full refund if the company that manufactures the device makes a change that removes functionality that the customer valued. This doesn't prevent the company from making the change, it simply makes sure that they incur a cost for doing so, and it makes whole any customer affected by the change.

This basically means that everything that has software updates can be returned forever. Like most of things in life, the answer is very rarely a new myopic and ill-conceived law added to the thick stack of existing incomprehensible legislation.

This basically means that everything that has software updates can be returned forever.

It doesn't. It means that functionality cannot be changed in a degrading way, but upgrading and non-conflicting security updates are still allowed.

For a customer, money upfront and money over time is the same (adjusting for the interest rate). They don't need just a dead brick, whatever it costs in production. When your saas stops having a feature, you stop paying. This is no different, except that I'd vote for a law which amortized the upfront cost to the real usage time. E.g. I bought a treadmill with 2-year warranty for $4000 and it stopped doing a claimed feature after a year (iow, became broken from my perspective). I either receive a service which returns the feature, or get $2000 back + 20% fine for inconvenience.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People were taking advantage >I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system I disagree with the premise that it's unethical to use a product I purchase and own from a for-profit company for a use that turned out not to be profitable for it. Note that it wasn't much of a hack; Sony sold consoles with the option to install another operating system from its menu [0]. Since the move was so unprofitable to…

Yep, they made a mistake supporting it. And they never will again.

They could not do that from the start, but they did, because they planned larger sales. Whether it turns out to be more profitable is their risk, not users. The important change is that people can't have an expectation (a risk) anymore which would turn out to be false a month after. Inability is a much, much lesser issue than a broken expectation.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has to be displayed before you buy the item, and it is. If you don't read the contracts you sign you only have yourself to blame. You also wouldn't go to a car dealership, skip the contract, sign it and expect good things to happen.

Does it even matter if we read these contracts? No one's going to negotiate terms with the billion dollar company and only lawyers will have a full understanding of the implications of what's written in these things anyway. This last fact alone should be enough to invalidate any consent. I mean, we're actually talking about "buying" games here. That's how insidious these things are. The few people who read this fine…

It matters. You can click decline. If more people read the contracts and clicked decline, perhaps they'd have to change the contract.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished. The flexibility is valuable. For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusab…

>Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. What about devices that are connected to the internet and need security patches? As a software engineer can you imagine supporting every version of your software you ever released? Sounds like a nighmare.

> As a software engineer can you imagine supporting every version of your software you ever released? Sounds like a nighmare.

Perhaps we (developers) need to get better at this. We care so much about pushing features and being agile and all, but when it comes to supporting old releases: "umm, no. It's a nightmare".

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t imagine buying a spoon that will only work with Campbell’s soul. Of course, some tech bro will say that their spoon2.0 is specially engineered for the best soup flavor …

That's a different debate IMO. Not so long ago we had external storage that only worked with Sony products. We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones. Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.

> We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones.

AirPods can be used with any phone just fine.

Engineering work has been done to make them to integrate deeply into Apple's OSes, but you can definitely use them on any phone.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#376
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that i dont agree but the Terraria example is a bit unfair. First this is issue of the platform. On other platforms you can choose version of the game. And second Terraria is example of probably one of the most supported games. The update you are talking about brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!! after release. Most companies would milk the product with third sequel and…

> brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!! Which can be a bad thing. The Minecraft I played first and the Minecraft I played recently are two different games, and I don't like how overpacked with stuff the new version is. Most game expansions - paid or not - follow the philosophy of "more of the same", rather than stopping somewhere between that and "less is more". Depending on the…

Yup. I started playing Minecraft on Xbox 360 which my kids and I loved. We still love the game, but it's so different now, it's not the same game at all other than voxels and biome themes and some of the original music. We have a ship of Theseus situation. It's no longer the same game. I'd love to be able to pick a version to play like you can on PC.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#377

This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day…

> This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage. I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voi…

> That is why I call [smart] devices 'dumb' devices

"Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage. I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voi…

> That is why I call [smart] devices 'dumb' devices "Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.

You are right, I should call them stupid.

But calling them smart is also confusing when most of them aren’t, with the "smart" part being on a remote server.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same w…

That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV…

  > Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made.
The changes to Kerbal are in Kerbal Space Program 2, not the original KSP. I highly recommend KSP, go ahead and get it. KSP 2 will have better graphics and add some new capabilities to the game, but honestly you could play KSP for years (I have) and not get tired of the graphics or what the game offers. To me KSP 2 seems like a competing game, not a replacement.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#380
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same w…

> my device, my rules Exactly. Companies that actually care about security don't bundle those updates with major breaking UX changes.

Which companies are those?
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