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Plans you're not supposed to talk about

dynomight.net

371–380 of 675 posts

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#371
Nice job author :-)

> You secretly guess that the group is sustained by a minority of true believers who make up critical mass for a larger group of people you, but you never talk about this and neither does anyone else. When you have kids, you feel weird about explaining your thoughts about all this to them, but you don’t parrot back what the religion says when you’re talking about the meaning of life either.

Bahaha. Maybe author doesn't know that these people (like them) make up the outer candy coating to many a cult. They aren't super committed, but they can't really rule out the core truth possibilities. So they stick around, and their don't-push, don't-pull style kind of encourages others to stay in a loose orbit like themselves. (To outsiders they are definitely cultists; to core insiders they are seen as weak; I've been in cult leadership)

To me, here's a, maybe _the_ big issue with people in this profile: They believe in being open-minded and actively avoid being closed minded. So they end up with this kind of question of vacillation on their hands. But IMO their problem is not best framed as avoidance of closed mindedness, it's better framed as a problem in developing and testing new, fresh alternatives. So they end up stuck in a troubling, secret dichotomy like that. Stay OR go...A OR B. There is no C, no D, and no, they don't really think about, or plan for that issue often enough. So many times the best options are found down in C-Z territory.

Just my experience. Thoughtful post, I enjoyed it.

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#372
post #54

Reading this gave me a kind of horrifying idea that goes something like: You know about a deadly disease whose most serious outcomes can be avoided by getting a shot. Many members of a group in your society have decided they don't want to get the shot. You are annoyed by the way they talk about a lot of things, including the way they talk about avoiding the shot. They, in turn, call you "smug" for the way your group…

My wife does something similar to me all the time. If she knows that I’m uncertain about a fact, she’ll feign a kind of mistaken certainty in the (true) fact to bait me into taking a bet against it. Then I lose the bet.

Same thing in politics - If you know the other side is uncertain about a position that you have high confidence in, stake your position and then politicize it so the other side is forced to either concede or stake their claim to the weaker position.

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#373

The underlying issue, and one that bugs the hell out of me, is Policy vs Truth. You can say true things all day, and convince nobody. You can enact policy based completely on Truth (e.g., Trust the Science), and completely fail. People don't care about Truth, they care about what changes they need to make, and who is asking them to make them. Good policy is only partially based on truth, it's more based on easy imple…

> You can enact policy based completely on Truth (e.g., Trust the Science)

Is this a joke or a real statement of your epistemic model?

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#374
post #58
post #54

Reading this gave me a kind of horrifying idea that goes something like: You know about a deadly disease whose most serious outcomes can be avoided by getting a shot. Many members of a group in your society have decided they don't want to get the shot. You are annoyed by the way they talk about a lot of things, including the way they talk about avoiding the shot. They, in turn, call you "smug" for the way your group…

but why are you so adamant on making everybody so perfectly safe? there used to be something about freedom and risk; heck, about life and risk. it's risky to be alive but it was more risky live way back in the day at what point does safety begin to stifle the drive to live? we as humans originally evolved in a risky environment, we thrived in it, we made it safer for ourselves; but maybe, just maybe, we also acquired…

If 'You' is a goverment in a country with socialised healthcare, you want your population as healthy as possible to keep costs down. Preventative care (vaccines) is much cheaper.

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#375

This reminds me of CEO-speak. A CEO cannot speak their true mind or their true assessment of a situation. They can't say "wow we're in trouble here" because then people will jump ship and then the company will be even more in trouble (and the CEO would get sued for breaching Fiduciary Duty) What a CEO says is merely wishful thinking for a goal they want people to follow. They can never speak their true plan. (And of…

It is a problem of going from an open-loop to a closed-loop (feedback) system. The CEO's speech affects the outcome. "We're in trouble here" might be the output of an objective assessment of the situation. But coming from the CEO it is now also an input into the situation that changes the assessment (CEO has lost faith! Panic!).

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#376
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you've already gotten the shot, you're protected from the disease. So, what is someone else not getting the shot going to do to you?

This ^. If the shots are truly protective, I don't understand what the hubbub is all about. Is it really all about protecting those who truly can't get the shot for whatever reason? I doubt it.

Yes, broadly speaking. That is the principle of herd immunity. We managed to eradicate smallpox with mandatory vaccination programs without all this political fuss.

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#377

Nice job author :-) > You secretly guess that the group is sustained by a minority of true believers who make up critical mass for a larger group of people you, but you never talk about this and neither does anyone else. When you have kids, you feel weird about explaining your thoughts about all this to them, but you don’t parrot back what the religion says when you’re talking about the meaning of life either. Bahaha…

I've been in cult leadership

That sounds interesting. How'd that happen? Is the experience something you're able to talk about, and if so how would you rate it?

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#378
post #130

As one of the church goers that genuinely believes in God and the afterlife I'm surprised and saddened to hear people attend in disbelief. It's a shame the same community can't be found amongst others that hold similar beliefs. It's sad that someone can't be true to their own beliefs.

> It's sad that someone can't be true to their own beliefs. Have you considered how strong of a vortex it is to not sway from a close groups' (including your entire family) belief about the most important thing in the entire world? A spouse could lose their marriage. A child could estrange from their parents and siblings. A pastor that loses faith would lose his job, marriage, and entire community.

Yeah I come from an agnostic and atheist friend and family group. Many don't want to have much to do with me anymore. I became a Christian over a decade ago. It was a big change for me. I'm in a very secular county here in NZ.

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says I don't vote? I do vote ;)

I didn't say you didn't. I was trying to show what would happen if you didn't vote and therefore why your vote matters.

Yeah I'm sure the politicians will notice the 1 person difference

Re: Plans you're not supposed to talk about

#380
post #324
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All revolution does is put a different group of people in charge than previously. The outcome could be good bad or ugly. Look at the iranian revolution. It has not resulted in a better outcome at all. In fact, most revolutions of the modern age has resulted in somewhat of a worse outcome for the citizenry.

> In fact, most revolutions of the modern age has resulted in somewhat of a worse outcome for the citizenry. 'Most' revolutions of the modern age were anti-colonial revolutions, in places like India and Africa, in the aftermath of WWII. Life under colonial rule in those places was, as a rule of thumb, not great. We then had a large string of revolutions in Eastern Europe, in the late 80s/early 90s[1]. Would you also…

A war of independence is a quite different thing than a revolution!

For one thing, when it's won, the losers go back home. After a revolution, they stay around. Which is you often end up killing them.

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