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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#372
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects. In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher. (That's not a boast - we're poorer and less effective at maths than you are.) What do you do if you're a…

> I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects. This is hugely variable within the US. > In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher. I think there's a lot of math teachers who would be a bit iffy…

Sounds like the difference is in the UK a teacher teachers a cohort of students through all subjects, not a subject for all cohorts of students. We have one maths teacher who teaches you everything.

Maybe they're terrible at half of it? I don't know.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people. Instead of solving that... well few of us have any power over that, so instead we resort to changing things we do have power over. Like… watering down math classes and pretending that is even the thousandth thing on the list of solutions that should be tackled first as a response. It's so far down the list (and has bette…

> These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Its not an anti-solution, and you provide neither evidence or reasoning to support your claim that it is part of a class of things that backfires. > Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people That is a real problem. Education is done in a culturally biased manner which perpetuates the disadvantage or marginalized groups is also a real problem. As is the fact tha…

>This is not about “watering down” math classes, but the opposite; it is about applying evidence to improve the quality and equity of mathematical instructions.

This ignores a majority of students that are are well severed through the current curriculum and would advance more slowly under the proposal.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone is a set which includes anyone. If all (e.g.) 7th graders must have the same knowledge of math, that knowledge of math cannot exceed the knowledge attainable by the dumbest (read: any) 7th grader. This is tautologically true.

Yes, thanks. That clears it up. You're right. We must teach no one anything otherwise there would be some people that wouldn't be able to understand. That was exactly what I was thinking and your example helped me understand. What you were saying was clearly tautological and I just didn't have the logical training to understand it.

I suppose this is what I get for trying to interact with someone in good faith on the internet.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#375

The irony is that this is probably going to exacerbate social injustice. Cupertino kids are going to be taking extracurricular math through RSM or Kumon in elementary school, and then the Cupertino school district (in the article) says that they have no intention to comply with the recommendations. SF kids aren't going to be exposed to algebra until 9th grade and then get a rude awakening in college when they realize…

Seems like it's already part of the California standard for 1st grade: https://www.ixl.com/standards/california/math/grade-1

E.g. "Find the missing number: _ + 1 = 5". Same thing with subtraction.

Based upon my experience with my 6 year old (in a public California elementary school), they actually seem to teach math in a huge variety of ways in 1st grade. Word problems, number problems, relationships between plus and minus, and boatloads of ways to solve any given problem.

I think they introduced it in Kindergarten too. But it was way beyond her at the time.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#376
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

> This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for I sincerely hope you're not serious about this. I took algebra in 7th grade and I was considered a remedial student with habitually poor grades. If you're telling me I was actually 2 years advanced by present standards, then the situation in California must be deteriorating s…

I attended underfunded rural public schools as well. The funding of a school district will often correlate with student performance, but in most subjects, it's not a causal link.

Kids with families who value education do better. Kids with parents who punish them if they don't do their homework do better.

When you isolate for income, there are large discrepancies in success between various cultural groups. Appalachian whites (my family) don't do well compared to many groups of the same income. The culture doesn't prize education, and even views it as being effeminate or "selling out". But that's only a small piece. A big piece of it is that parents don't give a shit about their kid's success in school, and that is very big in certain cultures.

My wife is the daughter of Filipino immigrants, and from the day my son started 1st grade, if he doesn't get all As, the attitude is that he has failed. At one point, I was going to argue with her, but I looked at my siblings, and my cousins (primarily white trash losers), and then looked at her family's success, and decided that she knew something I didn't.

My son has a TV and an Xbox in his room. The controllers and remotes are all kept locked away in my closet. If he doesn't get straight A's on his report card, all of it stays locked in my closet, even on weekends. We did this in the Fall of 2020 when he got all A's and a B+ in one class. He went all of the spring semester with no access to his TV or video games. He got them back in the summer after getting straight A's on his report card. (He's a 10th grader now). Contrast this with my poor, white working class siblings and how they raise their sons. My sister frequently complains about how bad her son's grades are (he's the same age as my son) and throws her hands in the air as if she's unable to do anything about it. He has multiple game systems in his room, and the last time I visited, when I woke up to take a piss, his light was on and he was playing games at 3 AM. This was a day after she had complained about his low C average. She coddles him, has low expectations for him, and ignores her own obvious parenting failures. She's a great representation for why so many American public schools are filled with thoroughly mediocre students.

If you have kids, get the fucking electronics out of their hands. If they aren't bored and regularly bugging you about being bored, it's probably because they are being entertained by their smartphones or video games, and you are fucking up as a parent.

Look at Nigerian American parents, or Asian American parents. Instead of doing what my redneck sister and many others do, and rationalizing the obvious differences by assuming that "they are too strict and are raising maladjusted nerds", imitate them. They will happily share their parenting strategies with you, and rule number one is that they aren't their kid's friends. They don't give a shit if their kids like them NOW. They care if their kids will like them when they are winning as adults.

Far too many successful people I meet complain about their parents being too hard on them, never stopping to look around at their current success and realizing that their parents made it possible.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#378

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

NY State does this, or at least did back when I was in high school. It was called “integrated math.”

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#379
post #339
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to tell you. That's the state of the country. But hey, at least they're honest about why they're doing it: > San Francisco pioneered key aspects of the new approach, opting in 2014 to delay algebra instruction until 9th grade and to push advanced mathematics courses until at least after 10th grade as a means of promoting equity. The school failed the most vulnerable children by objective measures, s…

When commenting on the state of the country, I would look towards the states that have historically ranked poorly in education and see why they’re never improving. California is definitely not one of those states & seems to have no issue in keeping a higher than average educated populace.

Looking at derivatives would make the danger these policies present to California students clear.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#380
post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

Knowledge/skill assessment is more complex than dictation. It's like a O(n) operation that necessarily looks at each student versus the O(log n) of dictating stuff to a class that asks some questions.

The more evaluation and feedback are in the process, the more individualized it gets, the more burdensome and expensive it gets, generally. That's not to say we can't improve our teaching methods to automate some mechanisms for feedback and pace adjustment in the future, though...

Education is due for a genuine upset. I think there are a bunch of ways technology could make general education significantly more effective, given the technology was designed for that. (Current device / OS / app design norms are mostly in service of consumerism, which assumes no one ever wants to learn anything unless someone paid for them to hear it. So, not that stuff.)

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