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Without parental leave I might be dead

nytimes.com

371–380 of 570 posts

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#371
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be better off financing your own "benefits" if you're above average. And everyone would theoretically also be better off without the benefits, because of how much money you would save in all the bureaucracy needed. It's only the people who are not able to take responsibility for having their own money, that are the ones that are really better off. Any tax financed benefits for everyone like this, pensions,…

But this doesn't seem to be happening. Very well off people in the US still have very very modest vacations and parental leave, very expensive day care etc. What's even the upside if you're just trading universal tax to paying a for-profit corp monthly instead? Skipping the queue through wealth instead of need?

I suspect that "very well off" people in the US most likely have only one breadwinner and one stay at home parent more or less full time. And/or a nanny.

The upside like I said, is that you save all that unnecessary work in the bureaucracy around the parental leave systems. Just look at sweden for example, it's a huge mess around the parental leave, they have a centralized agency now to micro manage every single household in the country with exactly how many days here and there, they will stay home with their child. It's basically central planning for child care.

And there are tons of edge cases and contradictions and bugs in this, of course. It's even become somewhat of a virtual currency now these "days" that parents are given as a gift from the state. Every single family in the whole country is now basically a welfare case that has to be processed through this machinery, with all the applications, paperwork etc, regardless of how well they actually manage on their own. It's incredibly costly, inflexible and inefficient, compared to just giving people higher salaries and letting them manage their family time themselves.

Edit: and, surprise surprise, it's also abused and people game the system. Many parents for example use their parental leave at the same time, to make extended vacations abroad of several months.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to rebut your arguments when you don't really explain them, instead relying on scarewords that don't fit at all. Who are the "additional investors"? The children? In what way would parental leave had been a horrible misstep if they do not show up? Seems like a wash. Or are the additional investors individuals and families who won't ever need paid leave, don't care about their neighbors, and don't care about…

I think the parent post is a troll, willingly or not. Leave it, he or she has made up their mind that infrastructure and services are a Ponzi schm. Sigh.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn’t make someone a troll smh.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people being unable to afford taking even a moderate amount of time off is the deeper problem. The sustainable answer is to fix the underlying economic problems - end this trickle up financial treadmill that has caused the majority to become so poor and disempowered [0], rather than creating a patchwork of allowances for specific system-legible purposes. For example bringing it back into the emotional realm - ev…

Society actually needs all of what you mentioned: - specific allowances (paid parental leave, paid sick leave) for obvious reasons - "blanket" paid time off outside of federal holidays for recreation and stuff like parents dying - extra PTO or working hours reduction to take care of sick/terminally ill relatives - wages big enough to allow everyone working full time to save a meaningful amount of money Most developed…

So yeah, the nuance to my comment is that the first things you list are important for social reasons - keeping your same position in the face of these additional burdens. I admit that my above comment is addressing the social problem purely through economic means (if an employer doesn't engage with your needs, walk away and find a new employer when you're available again). Unfortunately what we're offered in the US is mainly this economic lens, both policy and politically.

I don't know that I agree with the specific optimism in your last paragraph. Apart from the basic death toll, I think most of what is driving the "labor shortage" is people knocked out of situations where they were barely treading water, and retreating to lower rent areas and living with family. So wages will only rise enough to get people moving back onto the rent treadmill, and won't necessarily give away surplus wealth to increase their bargaining power. I'd love love to be wrong about this, of course.

IMO what is really needed to fix the economy is for the government to stop feeding the asset bubbles (aka giveaway to the upper class) through this ongoing combination of ZIRP plus austerity. Raising interest rates would lower asset prices, making home ownership more obtainable (despite the short term pain). And government-spent stimulus will cause distributed price inflation that will hopefully make the Fed raise rates, as opposed to the past few decades of runaway asset-only inflation that they've been able to conveniently ignore.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#374
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its just not beneficial for anyone. I'm personally a proponent of parental leave, but I'll answer this one point. "Forcing women" back into work after pregnancy is an attempt my mothers to minimize wage decreases. All of the evidence for wage discrepancies between male and female is due largely to women's role of motherhood. https://bfi.uchicago.edu/insight/research-summary/motherhood...

> is an attempt my mothers to minimize wage decreases There's a lot of evidence around wage discrepancies, but I have never heard anyone claim that it's the _mothers_ who are forcing themselves back to work. That seems like a huge stretch and doesn't align with anything I've seen before.

To whatever extent time out of the workforce is a driver of future wage discrepancy, it seems like at least some women would make an entirely economically rational choice to minimize that time out of the workforce. (I’m not claiming it’s a good or bad thing, just that there exists a strong force that would motivate people in this direction.)

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#375
post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. It is an answer. For example, my cousin in England was able to spend a year breastfeeding her daughters without having to go through the arduous process of pumping. Their family is alive and well, and so is the UK.

Not disagreeing with the point of this comment, but just as an aside, pumping is something that even mothers who are on leave do. Speaking from personal experience as the dad, I was able to feed the baby pumped milk for some of the many daily feedings instead of my wife doing the breastfeeding, which let her get a few extra minutes/hours of sleep when the baby needed to be fed. Both of us were on parental leave during this period. That tradeoff (getting some extra sleep vs. pumping) is not one that all parents would make, but it did help us get through the first few weeks of a newborn.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#376
I live in Europe and we became parents recently. The mother gets about four months of paid parental leave by default: two before and two after the day of birth (paid by the health insurer plus taxes). In addition, parents can take over a year of paid parental leave (paid by everyone, i.e. taxes).

That's the baseline and no company needs to bother with any company-specific policy, pseudo-benefit. No company incurs any explicit costs for that.

This is not even the most family friendly country in Europe, btw.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#377

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

There is nothing wrong with parental leave, but I don't see a compelling reason to have it be mandated by law. If company wants to offer it, good for them. It may help retaining senior employees who reached the phase in their life when they want to have children.

I don't think we should incentivise families with two working parents and young kids. It increases the pool of workers keeping wages down, benefiting employers, and increases stress in the family, likely contributing to the epidemic of broken families we're looking at - which have negative effects on these generations' mental health and crime history.

If you're middle class and you manage well your spending and are willing to relocate / look into alternative career paths, it's possible to maintain a family on one career and I firmly believe it's better for the children. If you're having kids you can either outsource your kids early years education to the government or do it yourself. There are some studies (albeit I find social studies to be murky and hard to rely on) finding correlations between UK government programs paying for nurseries and increase in teenage crime roughly 15 years later. Study or not, I think that kids before 2/3 should not go to nursery, the social trauma of being unattended with other bigger kids needs to wait a bit longer, once they're ready.

In our family, we didn't send the kids to nursery before 2.5/3 years and my partner didn't work (for an employer, she kept working on her own personal projects, for "entertainment"). They integrated in nursery very well, we never had detachment problems and they're fairly well behaved. We're both developers, so maintaining the family on one salary is trivial, but I've met people from all walks of life who managed to do it.

Sure, some people are simply not creating enough value for society to break even on one salary and that's suboptimal. I'd advise to sort their life out to earn enough to support a new family, before making babies.

There are plenty of studies that link stable family structures to success and unstable family structures to crime and mental health issues.

The last time the government meddled with families, it didn't end up well for the black community: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/03/the_decline...

And nowadays the stats for broken families, across all ethnicities, is higher than ever.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Subsidize me until they are in public school and I’ll high five you. I know this is an exaggeration, but it drew my interest. This expects that the rest of us have to work to subsidize you having children for five to six years . I'm wholly on board with helping parents raise children. Children are our future. But at some threshold of subsidization this equation tips and actively offloads the entire burden onto thos…

It sounds totally bonkers if you’re not used to it but this is actually the norm in other countries. Both of us had comparatively long parental leave for both kids. Both kids went into really nice state kindergarten before they were 18 months. Before that if we were poorer we’d have our childcare subsidised. Both kids get things like a sports club grant each year, free dental care and free healthcare. There are state…

Big difference between providing a free/affordable childcare center vs. paying the parent to not work for 5 years.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#379
post #344
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent who got 6 months that barely fucking scratches the surface of the time it take to raise a human. Subsidize me until they are in public school and I’ll high five you.

You are asking for an incredibly high amount of welfare, essentially "everyone else in society should pay me for 5 years because I chose to have a kid". I'm choosing to have a kid too, but I'm taking the personal responsibility path of saving and paying for it on my own. Perhaps there is some middleground, but 5 years is absolutely absurd.

This actually highlights a major misunderstanding in parental leave discussions: Most government-sponsored paid parental leave programs in other countries aren't paying 100% salary during the leave.

Sweden has one of the more generous programs that pays up to $41K/year (USD equivalent) or 80% of your income, whichever is lower. That amount is actually quite good if you're living modestly, but it may not be what people earning $100-150K have in mind when they see "paid parental leave".

Definitely better than nothing, though!

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring growth is not a Ponzi scheme, requiring additional investors for the initial ones to be paid is. Do you have an actual rebuttal?

It's hard to rebut your arguments when you don't really explain them, instead relying on scarewords that don't fit at all. Who are the "additional investors"? The children? In what way would parental leave had been a horrible misstep if they do not show up? Seems like a wash. Or are the additional investors individuals and families who won't ever need paid leave, don't care about their neighbors, and don't care about…

The additional investors are all individuals necessary in taking care of the new children directly or indirectly.

You introduce paid leave, which is fine, this creates more demand for children which is also fine.

So now you have more children. Who’s going to take care of these people? Presumably child care workers who are disproportionately women. And if those women have children as well? Who replaces them? And who replaces the women who originally were on leave?

If you think every industry can absorb 12 weeks (original proposal) of paid leave you’re in for a ride awakening. That’s if everyone only has a single child, by the way. Multiple children only compound the problem.

If you believe this problem will sort itself out you should consider that in San Francisco day care can be as high as 3000 a child per month. Keep in mind about 3 years of day care is necessary. So that’s almost 100k after tax. Even someone making 400k a year before tax would notice that. And that’s only daycare.

That being said this kind of Ponzi scheme isn’t really a big deal because that’s basically just having kids in a nutshell. However if you’re trying to convince your fellow citizens to pay for it you’re need some luck.

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