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Overly analytical guide to escorting

knowingless.com

371–380 of 465 posts

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#371
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question has an answer. If sex work is just like any other job, then many, if not most Western welfare societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. So you end up demanding women go back to the prostitution - because there is an opening at the local brothel next to the truck stop. This isn't theoretical - it has happened more than once in Germany. https://www.smh.com.au/world/no-jo…

I'm not entirely sure I grasp what you're trying to demonstrate. 1. Yes, most Western societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. 2. Yes, there are certainly openings at the local brothel. 3. With any luck, there are also openings for other jobs at the local supermarket, or as teachers, or as nannies, or working the fields, or cleaning cars, or coding, or... => Yes, some women (and I…

> I don't quite connect this to your affirmation that "its not normal work."

Really? You cannot get there?

Ok: If its normal work, then you - like what happened twice in Germany in my OP - are going to have to deal at some point with the case of a broken, depressed, uneducated, abused woman with dependency issues, likely ostracised from her family, etc, etc. who is desperate to never go back to her prostitution job.

Since - according to you - is no different to other normal work, you will have no reason to not insist that she takes up the opening at the local brothel in the not unlikely scenario that there are not actually any other positions available as a nannie/teacher/astronaut for such a candidate.

Just this one job. At the brothel. Who wants a prostitute.

You have a prostitute. One the dole. Your job is to get people back to work.

Now - if like any sane, compassionate human - you find yourself reluctant to insist on this - all the while whilst forcing every other unemployed bus driver, plumber, surgeon, pilot off the dole and back to work, then you too will have concluded that this one occupation is not normal.

Corner cases are brutal.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Few people wake up wanting to sell their procreative parts to the highest bidder. Even supposing few people want to do that, I don't see how it follows that nobody should be permitted to do it. You're missing a critical step.

Because the action under consideration is of a wholly different class than the others you mention. For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution. The action undertaken is of a wholly different nature. Namely it can create people, which is different than any other labor. Tolerating homosexual prostitution is actually more…

> For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution.

No, we don't regulate it because it can create new life, we regulate it because it falls under healthcare for which doctors have a certain duty of care, and if IVF is done poorly it can cause all sorts of deleterious health effects for the mother and the implanted embryo. These considerations do not apply to prostitution since we have contraception and abortion.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What about a female employee who doesn't stop her boss's sexual advances because he controls her income and career? Is that a transaction between consenting adults? You're trying to flip the script here. A boss (i.e. a concrete person yielding some form of power over another person) trying to coerce the employee is on the same line as a pimp or human traffickers using coercion (or worse). I was never talking about t…

Flipping of the script? No. > A boss (i.e. a concrete person yielding some form of power over another person) trying to coerce the employee is on the same line as a pimp or human traffickers using coercion (or worse). By your logic, she can say no. She can "look at options in the job market". She can go get a job at McDonald's. By your logic, its consensual and not coercion. By your logic, the boss is morally free an…

Nope. To everything what you just said, I supposedly said.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#374

> $1200/hour Holy shit, why do ppl pay this? Honestly wondering. Cant most people just go hook up at a bar or smth if they're that desperate?

This price is on the high end. But many people like myself don't have the courage, confidence, looks, or complex social skills required to succeed by going to a bar and trying to pick up a girl. Then when you look at how much time and disappointment you'd have to go through to do the same through something like Tinder, then suddenly paying a few hundred starts to make sense. And quote from somewhere, "you're not paying for the sex, you're paying her to leave after".

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Bitcoin add here?

Money transfers that can’t be stopped by international organizations.

What international organizations would be trying to stop these money transfers? The whole point of blackmailing someone is to get their cooperation.

Bitcoin: a solution desperately searching for a problem.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#376
post #349
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was not that niche and unique; I tried to consistently show data around how prices might impact your experience. The amount you charge is not correlated with the majority of the questions I asked sex workers.

In some Nordic countries, it's not illegal to sell sex, but it is to buy it. What do you think about that? Do you think making the men fear the law, but not the women, would do anything to help the women? I guess the government's objective is to kill the business completely, which is about as realistic as prohibiting alcohol.

I think that situation is somewhat absurd. People in general don’t think sex between consenting adults is wrong, so why is it suddenly when money is exchanged? And, at least, Sweden still has the law that any form of procurement of prostitution is illegal, which means it is still impossible for a prostitute to for example legally pay a guard, or even use the money to pay rent.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What about a female employee who doesn't stop her boss's sexual advances because he controls her income and career? Is that a transaction between consenting adults? You're trying to flip the script here. A boss (i.e. a concrete person yielding some form of power over another person) trying to coerce the employee is on the same line as a pimp or human traffickers using coercion (or worse). I was never talking about t…

> I was talking about a person who looks at the options in the job market, and figures all on own their that prostitution is the least shitty option available to them. If prostitution, which is heavily stigmatized by the society a person lives in and is illegal, starts looking attractive, then there is something wrong, don't you think? The problem is not decriminalization, the problem is that people don't have anywhe…

>If prostitution, which is heavily stigmatized by the society a person lives in and is illegal, starts looking attractive, then there is something wrong, don't you think?

I live in a country that doesn't criminalize prostitution. But even in countries where it is criminalized (most of them), it still can be an attractive enough proposition for sure, depending on the circumstances.

Not all prostitutes are those "street workers". A lot of prostitutes are living rather normal lives on the outset, at least in my country. There is plenty of part time prostitutes, too, apparently. Your next door neighbor could be a prostitute, and you won't know it.

Stigmatization surely is a problem, but that is directly correlated with criminalization too (but of course not entirely caused by it). Media plays a big role for sure too, usually portraying every prostitute as either a drug addict, abused, or both.

There is no easy solution, but one can start by stopping to stigmatize prostitutes, starting with ourselves and then with the people we know. Just threat them as well human beings.

>Which part of it, stigma, having no rights or a fair chance to get degraded/killed/catch STD/highly reducing their chances of having a romantic relationship?

Not every prostitute gets regularly degraded and/or abused, or killed. Most of the prostitutes around here probably do not have a much higher chance of being killed than other groups. STDs are another matter. But sure, some jobs are riskier than others. We as a society should make it less risky. The chances of bad things happening to prostitutes skyrockets when you criminalize prostitution and thus take away their chances of reporting crimes without being harassed or arrested by law enforcement themselves. Or when the police dismiss a prostitute reporting a rape because "how can a prostitute be raped?!". Or some child protective services agency shows up to take away your kid, because you dared report you were beaten and robbed by a John.

Then again, I can hardly find any justification for the laws to criminalize prostitution, other than "it leads to more crime". No shit sherlock, it's criminalized, and that brings more crime with it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point. We have plenty of examples of this happening, like when the US banned alcoholic beverages for a while, and this caused not only speak easys to spring up everywhere, it brought along murder and mayhem, lives destroyed and a vast spike in corruption.

>You can't provide for yourself and, even more so for you loved ones, by working at McDonalds. You can barely survive.

True, and that needs to change.

>Sure, if you have 2 choices - prostitution or dying from starvation, then it's not coerced consent.

Correct, that's life being shitty to you. It's not coercion because coercion requires somebody to make threats. Regardless, they are usually either more than two options, and sadly quite often only the one option of starvation. It seems to me you're advocating taking away the prostitution option, which then leaves only starvation? How is this better?

In a better world, we would only have people going into prostitution who really want it for some reason, instead of outright, desperate economic need. A world were people do not have to work 14h in some shitty factory and still cannot pay their rent, and cannot even dream of owning a house. A world were nobody starves, and everybody has access to fresh, clean drinking water. We don't have such a world. Making this world we actually got worse for these desperate people by criminalizing them does not help anybody, does it?

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#378
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is her experience is niche and unique, it is not indicative of how the industry at large actually operates so making any judgements would not be meaningful as OP was doing.

My experience was not that niche and unique; I tried to consistently show data around how prices might impact your experience. The amount you charge is not correlated with the majority of the questions I asked sex workers.

Your data collection was insightful[1] thank you for that.

All your caveats upfront on the quality of sampling is more than I have seen in many academic papers.

I don't have experience either as service provider or client to give a professionally informed comment here.

However having said that, sex work in general (even only in the United States) starts at lot less than 200-300$/hour in the lower end of the your study[2]. It is a great study and amazing subject testimony but it does only cover mid to high end of the spectrum.

As a basis for policy making covering the lower end of the spectrum and cover specifc policy issues and also cover other stakeholders like healthcare, law enforcement, welfare etc would be important.

I am sure there are lot more qualified people than me you are already in touch/working with, however I am happy to offer my help with statistics or code or lit review and publish formally /research proposal if you wish to go down that route.

[1] Your content, there are some parallels with how startups publish quality industry reports as a brand recognition strategy that I found very interesting.

[2] you have indicated the limitations in many places quite clearly am not finding faulting with your study .

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#379
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's comparable to working in a butcher that specialises in pork. Clearly, the job would be unsuitable for a Muslim or vegan jobseeker. That's why the government website specifies suitable jobs and has an exception for a good reason not to do the job. I agree with the general principle that not all labour is the same, but I don't think prostitution is in a class of its own. If you paid me enough I'd probably do it fo…

> If you paid me enough I'd probably do it for a week and then retire. Maybe this means that you don't really like your job? If you had access to the same goods as everyone else around you, more or less, and liked what you are doing, then doing it for a week stops making sense, doesn't it?

If I had millions of dollars I'd stop going to work 5 days a week for a company I don't own, yes. This seems like it'd be true of most people.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#380
post #15

1,200 an hour! Jeez, that is insane! good for them. Once in a while, I come across something like this and wonder, what is it like to be that rich to casually drop 1,200 an hour , for anything, let alone on escorts.

This is indeed cheap. The alternative is marriage that's gonna last 5 years and cost 1 million. That's 4k or 4 hours (discount for large order) per week - more than enough for most men who are able to marry such women. Sorry for my cynical view.
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