The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#371

Post by Seattle3503 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

milesvp wrote: post #343

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I’m not sure you’re correct that nothing is different. I saw a lecture recently by someone whose organization does mediation between student groups and universities with regards to free speech. He was saying that a few years ago for the first time his organization was starting to mediate in the opposite direction. Was a very interesting talk. The speaker had tried to commit suicide and in the process of recovering fr…

Was the talk by Greg Lukianoff by any chance? He has a book called "The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure" that expands on these ideas.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#372

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

"Apparently they dragged me on Twitter. I don't give a fuck, because Twitter is not a real place." - Dave Chappelle

I also enjoyed this recent article from The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/disinforma...

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#373

Post by morelisp » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

rscoots wrote: post #362

morelisp wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weak argument. First, there's a big gap between "canceling talks" and "no longer welcome on campus." Secondly, it's not like it was a recanted off-the-cuff remark or an ill-advised mailing list post dredged up from his grad student days - he published it in a national periodical[1] not two months ago. This at least suggests he's not a good communicator. [1] With all the usual caveats about Newsweek today being…

You'll admit that the category of 'anyone who has compared mainstream American politics to Nazism in a published article' is a pretty wide net though? Although we find it distasteful it seems to be a pretty common refrain/analogy of those in politics & media.

> You'll admit that the category of 'anyone who has compared mainstream American politics to Nazism in a published article' is a pretty wide net though?

No, I won't. "Published an article in a national periodical about mainstream American politics at all" is already a really small net! "Did it in the past two months" vanishingly less so! "And is giving a PR speech for their university" and I bet we're down to population size ~1.

I think universities as a whole would be a lot better off if they stopped considering this body of op-ed-cum-think-tank-writers pretending to be journalists worthy of serious attention at all, Nazi comparisons or no. And I think it says a lot about Mounk's own social circles that he considers this behavior de rigueur.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#374

Post by dqpb » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #111

creata wrote: post #92

Here's what seems to be a follow-up on an MIT webpage: https://orgchart.mit.edu/node/6/letters_to_community/importa... Edit: and for what it's worth, I think many people here are too easily stirred into a frenzy based on astonishingly little information about this incident.

The letter you link is quite clear: MIT doesn't want to hold a scientist up as a role model if progressive activists dislike him. This wouldn't have happened at University of Chicago.

It sounds to me like they didn’t want the climate lecture to be hijacked by people angry about something unrelated to climate.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#375

Post by shkkmo » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #82

commandlinefan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the majority of people also hold this view His argument is strengthened by, but doesn’t rely on, that fact.

Popularity absolutely does not impact the logical correctness of an argument: an argument is true by virtue of its own structure, if you say popularity somehow affects its correctness you've basically jettisoned logic in favour of subjective opinion. At best popularity serves as a useful heuristic for when you don't have the means to carefully confirm the correctness yourself. (There is a fairly uninteresting special…

The popularity of the opinion was not being used to support the truth of that opinion, but to point out the absurdity of censoring an opinion that has that much popular support.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#376

Post by poetaster » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #82

commandlinefan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the majority of people also hold this view His argument is strengthened by, but doesn’t rely on, that fact.

Popularity absolutely does not impact the logical correctness of an argument: an argument is true by virtue of its own structure, if you say popularity somehow affects its correctness you've basically jettisoned logic in favour of subjective opinion. At best popularity serves as a useful heuristic for when you don't have the means to carefully confirm the correctness yourself. (There is a fairly uninteresting special…

The author clearly states that Abott's position was not relevant to the talk he was to present. Wether his position on admittance us congruent with progress in client science has yet to be adressed.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#377

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #110

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Hard to imagine a legal approach that does not impermissibly infringe on the free association rights of all the various participants. The question is whether any other mechanism would be sufficient. If Twitter were interested, they could do something to inhibit the flow of the outrage mechanism, but there are strong free speech arguments against doing this. Also it is of course not in Twitter's own best interest. If…

It's Twitter. Free speech does not apply. Get this out of your heads.

If you're in Twitters house you play by their rules.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#378

Post by lazyeye » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #46

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

the problem is that prestigious institutions are run by bureaucrats wearing its skin. For example this article says "MIT buckled", when in reality some campus admin buckled because to them it's not worth risking their comfy job over a speaker. The bureaucrats have no skin in the game, they don't benefit from thinking about long term damage to MIT or society in general. From their perspective it's logical to bow to Tw…

These are the kinds of institutions that like to tell others how to think and behave.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#379

Post by kodah » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

still_grokking wrote: post #339

coldtea wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US sodomy was a crime too. Laws can change. Labour law is not written in stone. And even with current laws, where there "need not be a just cause", there are protections against unjust causes (e.g. because they found out you're jewish, or you're fat, or whatever) and "because a mob campaigned against one" can be added to that. "But, under current law the business could just say they fired them for their own ne…

But there is than the next obstacle in the US system: You need to have very deep pockets to actually take a case in court. "Justice" is only available to the rich in the US. (And this doesn't seem to be a construction error if you look closer. But that's another topic).

> "Justice" is only available to the rich in the US.

I disagree. I think we can all agree the government has a monopoly on violence which it is relatively inclined to use. The US system depends on the idea that someone will challenge the use of that monopoly in their particular instance, which we call precedent. It is true that people not-of-means may be subject to that violence unjustly but it only takes the government messing with the wrong person once to establish precedent. The wrong person could be rich but they could also just be a person who catches public support.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#380

Post by deadpannini » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

Protesting isn't addressed in the article.

Who in the 60s and 70s was invited to speak at a college or university, then later had their invitation withdrawn due to their support of the Vietnam war or corporate interests?