GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars • Hacker News Board

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#371

Post by mietek » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

martin_a wrote: post #364

Animats wrote: post #42

Maybe lithium-ion batteries in mass-market vehicles aren't such a good idea. We may need a battery technology that can survive poor maintenance less than perfect battery construction, and low-cost vehicle designs. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their battery. That's not a mass-market solution. BYD is converting over to lithium iron phosphate, which is much better behaved when damaged. Toyota is working on so…

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#372

Post by ikurei » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

martin_a wrote: post #364

Animats wrote: post #42

Maybe lithium-ion batteries in mass-market vehicles aren't such a good idea. We may need a battery technology that can survive poor maintenance less than perfect battery construction, and low-cost vehicle designs. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their battery. That's not a mass-market solution. BYD is converting over to lithium iron phosphate, which is much better behaved when damaged. Toyota is working on so…

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

> Electric car fires are no big deal anymore.

> Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours

How is this not a big deal? This forces firefighters, which sometimes are small departments without a lot of resources, to transport the cars. It's a nuissance if it's 1 car, but a parking lot caching fire would be an absolute nightmare.

If a car catches fire in a narrow street in the middle of a city, and it jumps to just a few more cars, you may have a massive issue.

It's great that you guys have adapted to this, and I'm sure we will learn how to make battery powered cars safer. This is the early-ish stages of a new technology, which are always rocky times... but it is still a big deal which shows how early it still is, which would be fine if we didn't need to stop using gas ASAP.

PD: I tried not to sound snarky but I may have failed. I intended no snark. I'm actually asking, how can this not be a big deal? Because it sounds like a big deal to me.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#373

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #98

sjg007 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how electric cars are any different than mobile phones. So basically this means a 3 year life span in terms of battery performance. Regular combustion cars though also suffer reduced mpg so I am not saying this is an apples to apples comparison.

While nobody will come out and say it, I’m convinced based on some extensive early career battery system engineering and various evidence from tesla that what they do is put in much more raw capacity than they sell you and then limit with software the capacity of the battery. Early in the life of the battery this leads to slowed degredation and as the battery agrees the software uses more and more of the raw capacity…

I'm pretty sure every product with lithium-ion batteries does this, but it's not so that they can use the extra capacity later, it's because letting these kind of batteries either fully charge or discharge is itself harmful to the batteries, so to get a useful lifespan you have to have some amount of extra capacity.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#374

Post by White_Wolf » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:17 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #248

beamatronic wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If batteries are easily swappable with minimal tools, then a lot of range concerns go away as well. I think battery ownership and care needs to be decoupled from the vehicle. I also think the federal government should enforce interoperable batteries between vehicle brands.

The cars shape and structural components are designed around the battery. The cars software, motors, charging electronics, software, cooling systems, etc are all designed for the specific battery. The battery eats up a significant fraction of the cost of the car, and the systems designed around it a significant fraction of the remainder. Asking for interoperable batteries between vehicle brands is like asking for int…

I'd say it should be possible to have a certain degree of compatibility just like I expect my GPU to work on any of the MB on the market supporting PCI-e(Space and cooling issues asside). The battery should be just a battery with a protection system. Charging and BMS should be separate and replaceable along with the battery. The OS of the car should support x number of BMS systems with a unified protocol.

You want a Li-Ion pack? This BMS and this shielding are required. You want Lead batteries? This BMS needs to charge it. Do you want that new battery tech? You need the new BMS for it and an OS driver for the BMS. Plug it in and it's done.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#375

Post by tromp » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:27 AM UTC

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #370

gpm wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cars shape and structural components are designed around the battery. The cars software, motors, charging electronics, software, cooling systems, etc are all designed for the specific battery. The battery eats up a significant fraction of the cost of the car, and the systems designed around it a significant fraction of the remainder. Asking for interoperable batteries between vehicle brands is like asking for int…

> Asking for interoperable batteries between vehicle brands is like asking for interoperable engines between vehicle brands, it's ridiculous No, it is like asking batteries for radios follow the norm (so that they can be swapped), or petrol to be the same for all cars, with the same pouring mechanism (a round hole), or USB connectors to be the same between devices.

Swappable batteries preclude the large weight savings of a structural battery that is an integral part of the car's chassis.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#376

Post by codeulike » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #42

Maybe lithium-ion batteries in mass-market vehicles aren't such a good idea. We may need a battery technology that can survive poor maintenance less than perfect battery construction, and low-cost vehicle designs. Tesla had to put a titanium plate under their battery. That's not a mass-market solution. BYD is converting over to lithium iron phosphate, which is much better behaved when damaged. Toyota is working on so…

That's not a mass-market solution

Tesla have sold well over 1.5 million cars at this point

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#377

Post by codeulike » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #339

Robotbeat wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla already uses lithium iron phosphate for some Model 3s as it's cheaper (not more expensive like you claim). And Tesla has basically already solved the fire problem through careful engineering, and other carmakers will figure this out as well. But also, car fires happen all the time. They're just normal and so don't get to the news. My grandfather died in a gasoline fire (which can happen a lot faster).

> And Tesla has basically already solved the fire problem Have they? So why did a Tesla Model S Plaid (a new car) catch fire while being driven just a few months ago? https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/7/2/22560662/tesl...

There are 1.5 million Tesla cars out there on the road. Most of them, nearly all of them really, are not on fire.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#378

Post by Lev1a » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:58 AM UTC

mietek wrote: post #371

martin_a wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?

From my recollection of a documentary I watched a few years ago: You can cut power to the burning building if the fire hasn't already destroyed the circuit(s) itself, solar panels though are not bound to the utilities thus can't be shut off remotely and could give electric shocks to the firefighters/left-over occupants. IIRC there were some nasty accidents that happened like this.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#379

Post by martin_a » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 11:11 AM UTC

mietek wrote: post #371

martin_a wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?

> What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?

When solar panels were new, firefighters were afraid, that classic methods will no longer work and that lots of houses would burn down, because the solar panels would be a solid, impenetrable "shield" against the water from the outside.

Turns out that solar panels will melt due to the heat before the firefighters arrive (for large fires where you have to extinguish from the outside), have killswitches, can be ripped from the roof when using a ladder and a wooden pole with a hook at the end... In the end it was just fear of this new and rather unknown technology.

Also tactics have evolved. Your main path to the fire will be from the inside, especially for normal housing fires, as you want to get as close als possible to the fire so you'll have to use as little water as possible. This lead to a steep decline in the use of "attacks from the outside".

Those will only be necessary for very large fires. In that case the panels are often gone, as already mentioned, or the house is a total loss, so destroying the panels forcefully is not that bad if you really need to do it.

Tesla Solar roofs will probably behave like any other panel/tile and can be penetrated with the right equipment or will break down by themselves as a result of excessive amounts of heat. I don't see big problems here.

Re: GM tells some Bolt owners to park 50 feet away from other cars

#380

Post by gameswithgo » Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 11:18 AM UTC

ikurei wrote: post #372

martin_a wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting fur…

> Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. > Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours How is this not a big deal? This forces firefighters, which sometimes are small departments without a lot of resources, to transport the cars. It's a nuissance if it's 1 car, but a parking lot caching fire would be an absolute nightmare. If a car catches fire in a narrow street in the middle of a city,…

firefighters are tough people, they had procedures for gasoline fires, now they have them for electric fires. not a big deal.