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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

nltimes.nl

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#371

Post by apexalpha »

blendergeek wrote: post #326
jacquesm wrote: post #27

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

I drive Uber for a few months. I hate the idea of "hourly minimums". Maybe we can have that for full time drivers. But, I would go out on "unprofitable times" (when my hourly pay was substantially less than minimum wage due to a lack of rides) and read books (that I would have read anyway). Doing this I made small amounts of money while doing a leisure activity. I loved the ability to drive less than full time in exc…

In your case they would give you a "0 hour contract". You choose your hours but still have protections like an enployee.

As independent contractor Uber was handing off every risk associated with running a business to their drivers.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#372

Post by blueboo »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #354

If this ever happens in the U.S. I won't bother with driving Uber anymore and this would probably put them out of business. The Taxi industry will win back from the disruption that Uber caused. This has nothing to do with worker's rights. No one gave a crap about Taxi driver's work standards and they are/were treated worse than Uber drivers. This is all about the Taxi industry fighting back. 75% of all ride share dri…

A recent study suggests Chicago drivers earn less than minimum wage.

> After accounting for driving expenses and self-employment taxes, the average TNP driver in Chicago earns about 3% to 5% less than minimum wage. In 2019, drivers earned $12.30 per hour, or 5% less than the city’s minimum wage of $13 per hour at the time. In 2020, drivers earn slightly above minimum wage, but the hourly rate of pay was artificially inflated due to the reduction of traffic congestion on Chicago roads. With pre-pandemic levels of traffic congestion, drivers would have only earned an hourly wage of $13.62 per hour after expenses and taxes, which is 3% below the city’s minimum wage of $14 per hour at the time. The authors note that the city’s minimum wage will increase to $15 per hour on July 1, 2021.

https://illinoisupdate.com/2021/01/26/release-the-average-ub...

Hm.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#373

Post by yawaworht1978 »

lhorie wrote: post #363
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coercion is a bit a radical expression, I would call it dire economic straits, make a quick buck on the side. Whatever the reason, good on the Dutch and the union not letting them trample on their values by these "honorable" folks and their values, here is the hall of shame: Wednesday February 22: Cocaine and groping. Thursday February 23: Investor betrayal and accusations of stolen technology. Fowler, a former engin…

Uber is about as close to a ship of theseus as it gets. All this stuff you're talking about is ancient news from like 4 years ago. Since then, the entire C-suite left, including Kalanick and Thuan (Singhal spent virtually no time at Uber), not to mention crazy high attrition rates at all levels, and several rounds of layoffs to top it all off. Since then, greyball and its ilk got shutdown, the CSO got fired for hidin…

Nope, this excuse does not fly. First they do things clandestinely, then try to prevent any court case, then drag the court case out as long as possible and then it's supposed to be ancient?

So you are saying the new c level are something like angels and saints? https://lawstreetmedia.com/tech/uber-officers-and-board-memb...

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#374

Post by kristopolous »

blueboo wrote: post #372
ChicagoDave wrote: post #354

If this ever happens in the U.S. I won't bother with driving Uber anymore and this would probably put them out of business. The Taxi industry will win back from the disruption that Uber caused. This has nothing to do with worker's rights. No one gave a crap about Taxi driver's work standards and they are/were treated worse than Uber drivers. This is all about the Taxi industry fighting back. 75% of all ride share dri…

A recent study suggests Chicago drivers earn less than minimum wage. > After accounting for driving expenses and self-employment taxes, the average TNP driver in Chicago earns about 3% to 5% less than minimum wage. In 2019, drivers earned $12.30 per hour, or 5% less than the city’s minimum wage of $13 per hour at the time. In 2020, drivers earn slightly above minimum wage, but the hourly rate of pay was artificially…

Well good thing independent contractors are exempt from minimum wage laws! And union protections, mandatory breaks, sick days, workers compensation, health insurance, overtime pay, discrimination law, unemployment insurance, employer liabilities to social security pay...

Wait a minute, I think this is intentional! Can you imagine an employer trying to subvert the gains of the labor movement?!

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#375

Post by Closi »

blendergeek wrote: post #326
jacquesm wrote: post #27

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

I drive Uber for a few months. I hate the idea of "hourly minimums". Maybe we can have that for full time drivers. But, I would go out on "unprofitable times" (when my hourly pay was substantially less than minimum wage due to a lack of rides) and read books (that I would have read anyway). Doing this I made small amounts of money while doing a leisure activity. I loved the ability to drive less than full time in exc…

> But please no hourly pay.

You might be willing to work for less than minimum wage, but in reality minimum wages exist because without them they create a race-to-the-bottom for workers, and it's very hard to write a policy that's something like "you can pay a person less if they are enjoying it and are reading a book and not really doing that much".

Waiting time is a regular part of jobs and we pay for it in other career paths - can you imagine if everyone only had to pay security guards for the time spent apprehending thief's and they got no pay for all the waiting around reading newspapers they do?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#376

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dantheman wrote: post #327
etchalon wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. Universal healthcare would empower a lot of entrepreneurs, make it easier to attract talent for smaller companies, and free me of a completely ridiculous amount of paperwork and oversight each year. If someone told me, as a business, I could just pay a tax and know my employees had access to the same quality of care as everyone else, I'd sign up in a heart beat.

How about we get companies and government out of healthcare?

So what's left, witch doctors?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#377

Post by Matticus_Rex »

arenaninja wrote: post #323
dnautics wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And do they cook one food order at a restaurant they work for, then 15 minutes later walk across the street and cook for a competing restaurant for 30 minutes, and then immediately walk back across the street and cook a food order for the other restaurant? No, of course that's not normal. As a former Lyft/uber driver this is absolutely correct. It gets even hairier: suppose you are sitting on both apps (or even mor…

> It gets even hairier: suppose you are sitting on both apps (or even more) waiting for a ride. Do you get to double-bill two companies for minimum wage hours? IMO this is a no-brainer, the answer is yes, double-bill. The same applies if you get two remote jobs, you bill both.

In many cases this will be a felony, FYI.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#378

Post by nickff »

BLanen wrote: post #293
Jommi wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a terribly lopsided and blanket view on a business working over 50+ different ethical and regulatory environments/societies.

I don't care that they exist in many places. Corona is in 200+ different ethical and regulatory environments/societies, I think that that is likewise bad for society and hope we get rid of it. There's enough other comments with the typical "nuance" you can read.

>"Corona is in 200+ different ethical and regulatory environments/societies, I think that that is likewise bad for society and hope we get rid of it."

COVID has killed over four and a half million people; about four million people have driven for Uber (worldwide). Do you really think that doing some driving for Uber and dying of COVID are "likewise bad"?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#379

Post by aqsalose »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #361
ChicagoDave wrote: post #354

If this ever happens in the U.S. I won't bother with driving Uber anymore and this would probably put them out of business. The Taxi industry will win back from the disruption that Uber caused. This has nothing to do with worker's rights. No one gave a crap about Taxi driver's work standards and they are/were treated worse than Uber drivers. This is all about the Taxi industry fighting back. 75% of all ride share dri…

I also have never heard a proven argument against Uber. - Uber passengers LOVE the service. Way more than taxi service or public transportation. - Since Uber started, drunk driving injuries/fatalities are down 30%-35%. - Drivers can be anyone with a working car. There is no "interview". You get background checked and your car is inspected. - Drivers get to write off miles. - Drivers get discounts on service at Jiffy…

>Now if people are worried about employment practices, why not look at Walmart, Amazon, Target, and most retail stores. They intentionally staff people with erratic weekly hours, keeping shifts to 4 hours (no breaks or lunches required) and no one reaches 35 hours to enforce benefits.

Is there Target in the Netherlands?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#380

Post by kristopolous »

hmate9 wrote: post #118
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autonomous cars are more expensive than drivers; the only reason they dislike having real drivers is that they have a voice.

Over the long run there is no way that autonomous cars are more expensive

Who's liable if the driver crashes?

Who's liable if the automated car crashes?

Uber doesn't want to be responsible for the risks associated with their reward.

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