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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#371

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

What's your definition of long term? mRNA vaccines are built on science started 30 years ago, are being made by companies founded to make mRNA vaccines 10+ years ago, and have been to numerous trials for many years now.

The current set of vaccines have been fielded for nearly 2 years. How long term do you want to get?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#372
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

> For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? This argument doesn't hold up. First, tying availability of medical care to the "right" behavior unconscionable at so many levels. In a developed country, do we really want to create a tier of disabled or unhealthy people that we've denied care to because we don't like their behavior (maybe dont answer that) More practically…

In many ways, I do agree with you. I don't want there to be multiple tiers of healthcare based on someone's lifestyle. I believe strongly that if someone is sick, then they deserve help.

At the same time, there are several implications of that ideal that affect us very personally right now. At the moment, a large portion of the hospitals are full. By now, I'm sure we've read the news reports, but in case someone doesn't understand what that practically means, I'll offer the following. Full means a combination of no physical space and no staff to provide care. Now, the hospitals have done a good job of creating physical space to treat patients out of tents, portable buildings, conference areas, and cafeterias, but many of them really don't have anywhere else to go. Of course, those rooms don't mean a lot if there's not enough staffing of which there is not. Certainly, you can ask the existing staff to do more and they have. A normal ICU staffing ratio would be one nurse to either one or two patients depending on the level of care. The reason that the nursing ratio exists this way is that the care they provide requires that kind of attention. For example, they're required to titrate multiple medications, which means adjust the rate of the drips to achieve some kind of affect such as blood pressure. This can be fiddly given how sick the patients are and, to be clear, this is only one of the many tasks they provide. Current staffing ratios are something like three or four to one in the ICU, which is not standard of care, but where we're at.

As a result of this staffing and space conundrum, we're now at the point where the physicians are essentially being forced to choose who gets to die. My wife is an ICU physician. This week she's working days and is on night call. Last night, about every two hours, they called her because they need hospital beds and none are to be had. They had a heart attack come in who needed a stent. Normally, that would go to the ICU afterwards, but, again, no beds. When that went poorly, her job was to go through the charts and figure out who they were going to bump from the ICU to a step down unit. All of the patients there needed ICU level care. If the rare cases when this happened pre-COVID, they would transfer to another hospital. All of the hospitals for hundreds of miles are in the same situation, full, and we're in a very large metropolitan area. A good portion of these patients will likely die from this reduced level of care when they would normally live.

Now, my point in mentioning this is not to appeal to emotion and perhaps persuade someone to get the vaccine. We're well beyond that. It's more to help understand the consequences of our collective action.

At the moment, the hospitals are filled with with COVID patients. Around 99% of them are unvaccinated. Now, if we are going to treat everyone equally, which both you and I agree with, they get to go to the hospital to be treated. As a result, the hospitals are full. Since the hospitals are full, reduced care is given. Since reduced care is given, more people get to die of ailments unrelated to COVID. That is precisely why COVID differs from something like smoking or obesity. Hospitals are not full due to smokers nor obese people. They are full due to unvaccinated COVID.

Beyond that, I can assure you that the medical staff providing this kind of care are tired and they all want to quit. It's not just the sustained, long hours, it's the complete and utter unwillingness of the general public to take a very simple, preventative step. Further, they're frustrated that the public comes to them to save their life after they get sick, but derides, abuses, and slurs them prior to that point when they tell them precisely how not to be in that situation. Again, this is not to appeal to emotion. We're past that. Another consequence of the pandemic going on like this is that they can and will quit. This will exacerbate the existing hospital staffing shortages and they are not easy to replace because it takes about ten years of training to become an ICU physician.

Really, truly, I do not like medication mandates. I understand; if a vaccine now, what later? That's fine. However, then we're left with a crappy choice. Either get people vaccinated as quickly as possible or be left with a partially collapsed hospital system.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#373

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

I find it interesting that full approval has not affected people calling the vaccines "experimental" in any way. Seems that this goalpost was never real in the first place.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...that is why I could never be a libertarian. People have repeatedly proved themselves unwilling or unable to live up to the libertarian ideal of behaving "rationally."

There's nothing inherently inconsistent between right-libertarian values and a vaccine mandate. Libertarians believe that force should be applied to person A to protect person B from person A in certain circumstances. If person A wants to punch person B in the face, restricting person A by force is perfectly consistent with libertarian values. If person A threatens to infect person B with a deadly disease due to refu…

Exactly! Not getting a vaccine violates the all-important "NAP". Of course most self-professed libertarians likely would think of a short rest and not aggression when they hear NAP, as its become a generic anti-government term rather than the nuanced political ideology it once was.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t need to eliminate transmission for the vaccines to be useful. My understanding is that they do meaningfully reduce transmission, even for Delta. You are also missing another important factor. In addition to reducing transmission, the vaccines greatly reduce the chance of hospitalization, which together significantly reduces the peak load on the health system so that it continues to function well and serve no…

There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.

Alcohol and fast food are not infectious diseases that can spread through entire populations in a matter of weeks.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#376
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine reportedly can also trigger a more severe immune response in people who already have naturally-acquired antibodies. Try to find good statistics on the rates and severity of adverse reactions for people who have already have COVID. I've had very little success.

All evidence is that it still is a greater risk to not get vaccinated if you've had COVID than to get vaccinated. A lot of bullshit "reportedly" happens. That's why the CDC sets guidelines based on the based scientific evidence available and says you should get the vaccine whether or not you had COVID. Stop spreading disinformation.

To be a bit blunt - I made an unsupported assumption, which I called out explicitly by the use of scare quotes. You have responded with an unsupported dismissal.

I am most assuredly not spreading disinformation.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.

Alcohol and fast food are not infectious diseases that can spread through entire populations in a matter of weeks.

Vaccines don't stop the spread. Look at Iceland. Any argument of the form you're making is invalid.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#378
post #368
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your scientific basis for betting that Prof. Pollard is incorrect? Even though vaccination likely reduces the risk of transmission, we have no evidence that even a very high level of vaccination would be sufficient to reduce R0 below 1.0. It's impossible to reach 100% coverage and even countries with high vaccination levels are still experiencing uncontrolled community spread. We can flatten the curve to an e…

I'm afraid you're probably correct. I fully support vaccination, am vaccinated and support vaccine mandates. Still, the fact is here in Britain high vaccination rates are not stopping the propagation of the virus. Maybe if we also had a full lockdown as well that combined with vaccination might stop it spreading, but that's not a reasonable policy given the low risk of the virus to the vaccinated population and young…

A full lockdown is not practical, nor would it be effective. SARS-CoV-2 has multiple animal reservoirs. So even if we could somehow eliminate it from all humans simultaneously (we can't), someone would just catch it from an animal again and the whole pandemic would restart. The bats which presumably transmitted it to humans in 2019 are still out there somewhere.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#379
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...that is why I could never be a libertarian. People have repeatedly proved themselves unwilling or unable to live up to the libertarian ideal of behaving "rationally."

Behaving rationally isn't a particularly libertarian ideal. All political ideologies aspire to behave rationally. Nobody stands up and starts with "Lets approach this irrationally and ..."

Maybe we should give it a try? I mean it's not like our current approach is wildly successful...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t know this. We don’t know this. We have to stop making these statements so casually about things that haven’t been studied.

What? They have been studied. For this and for other vaccinations. Kids get duplicate MMRs all the time because of lost paperwork. Sometimes it feels like a new virus comes along and people forget we have 111 years experience with vaccinations.

It's not even the same technology.
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