A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#371

Post by prawn » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #291

prawn wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The author could as easily chosen an lead imagine of the same person in a class room" Might vary where you live, but my understanding is that the author of a piece is not usually the one picking images and writing the headline. There are some instances where the writer and photographer are the same, but that's not the case here. It's a story about males who aren't in college, so why would they have photos of males i…

> It's a story about males who aren't in college, so why would they have photos of males in school? Here is an example of a article with a different narrative called: Why Boys Are Failing in an Educational System Stacked Against Them ( https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-boys-are-failing-in-a_b_8... ) Note that the focus of blame here is on the education system and then look at the image. The person in frame is the te…

As you said, that's a different narrative with a different picture. OP's story is about individuals saying they feel lost, and then it shows them bumming around at home.

After I quit university and before I found my eventual career path back in the 90s, a relevant picture would've been me stuffing around on the computer as that's largely what I did (writing a book, playing Hextris, typing up things for my dad, seeing what a modem could do, etc).

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#372

Post by usename_Here » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #281

usename_Here wrote: post #273

I agree on some of the points about support structures for women that don't exist for men. I've seen it occur even at the professional level, female co-workers are reached out to, invited to groups, given networking opportunities that I would have to put loads of effort to keep up with. It's biased treatment in the now, even if it's trying to offset the errors of the past.

Its not that the support structures do not exist, after all they never did and men did fine without them, its that college is suffused with an ideology that is anti-men, anti-merit and, for the most part, useless for anything but its own self-propagation.

Sure, those structures didn't exist prior, but that doesn't mean their existing now doesn't provide an advantage to those who benefit from them.

And it's not that I'm against such structures or groups on the basis of shared identity that you're born with, but I think it would be beneficial for those structures ( especially when they're company funded ) to have niches for those who don't fit niches.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#373

Post by long_time_gone » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

vimy wrote: post #347

long_time_gone wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==its that college is suffused with an ideology that is anti-men, anti-merit and, for the most part, useless for anything but its own self-propagation.== I never felt like this kind of victim while in college (mid-2000s). I wonder if all colleges have changed or if society has changed. If it is society that has changed, maybe our colleges are simply reflecting the real-world change.

It’s only been the last +- 5 years that this became the dominant thinking at colleges.

Based on which metric?

Does the same thinking carryover to the construction industry which is 97% male?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#374

Post by School-Cotton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

Simon321 wrote: post #131

To people recommending trades, there's nothing wrong with trades, but you can get more out of college than only a job. You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. The environment also naturally stimulates and values learning, gathering knowledge and understanding. You can learn how to become a better person and think more critically. Seeing how many misinformation is going around and the p…

> You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise.

I’m not so sure. Why do you need to pay someone to give you lists of books to read, rather than just buying and reading them yourself?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#375

Post by whywhywhywhy » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #37

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

Read the article he actually has two jobs one of which is music production which he's passionate about and invests his money into crypto.

What can university truly offer an 18 year old who already knows what they want to do and is already doing it without an expensive education.

Wish I was that on track when I was 18 and he'll probably be ahead of his peers who went to college by the time they graduate.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#376

Post by Gravityloss » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

dkarp wrote: post #158

WalterBright wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EE programs tend to focus on electronics, not electrical systems. But learning how house wiring works is a simple book away. But be careful - unlike electronics, house electrics can kill you. On the other hand, electricians have weird gaps in their knowledge. If I ask them to do something slightly out of the ordinary, this becomes apparent. For example, none of them understand inductive coupling, or even know what it…

I find this with everything. You have to become an expert at everything if you want it done right. Maybe it's because the truly expert help is generally too expensive. Examples: - Taxes/Pensions - if you just rely on your accountant then they'll do the bare minimum and you'll miss out - Energy company - we're rolling out smart gas/elec meters in the UK. There is an old type (smets1) and a new type (smets2). You don't…

Building management, renovation and construction is such a wild west.

I understand good vocational training (for example certified plumbers) in a country pays itself back very much.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#377

Post by jensensbutton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

icare_1er wrote: post #177

zapnuk wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how woman feel reading such comments. Men dominated better paying jobs and positions of power since forever. It took 50+ years between equal rights before the law to equal opportunities in the labour market and education. Men still have every opportunity a woman has. In addition, they are still recognized more for leading positions. They also dominate about every trade related job. Yet, they are 'left withou…

No one ever stopped women from pursuing career in high-frequency trading or anything else. No one ever stopped women from inventing Amazon or Microsoft from their garage. No one ever stopped women from choosing to graduated in science, maths, finance, rather than art, litterature, or "gender studies".

As recently as 1970 women in the US weren't allowed to open checking accounts or get loans from a bank by themselves, but tell me more about how no one _ever_ stopped women from doing what they want.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#378

Post by icare_1er » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

Levitz wrote: post #335

lyaa wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has experience with the educational systems of the middle east, I find it amusing how you are misinterpreting the situation. It's extremely hard for women in these countries to get good careers in any field other than teaching or medicine especially since they are often forced to marry and leave the work force (they can't work without their husbands' permission and they almost always handle all child c…

So let me get this straight. Your reasoning is that in brutally sexist societies women choose to study completely male-dominated fields because they don't have to make a living after it, whereas in the most egalitarian societies in the entire world sexism pushes them towards traditionally female fields to escape discrimination?

So, that makes you reach the following conclusion: "the more a society is egalitarian - say, Scandinavian countries, the more it forces women to do painting and arts".

Are you saying that "egalitarian" societies are in fact sexist, and that teaching schools/staff (largely populated by progressive left-wing women), are in fact preventing little girls from doing maths and learning C in their bedroom ?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#379

Post by dgb23 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #234

baron816 wrote: post #63

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. This. We are seeing the results of what was reported in the book Boys Adrift . My older son just graduated high school. He has no interest in college at the moment, and has shown a gift for working with his hands. He is currently doing a carpentry apprenticeship with an acquaintance that runs a renovation and design company.…

I very much struggled with discipline and motivation at university and eventually dropped out. It was not until I started working when I became a highly motivated self-driven learner. Now I love studying and learning (and teaching), but I do it at my own pace and I choose the things that matter for my work or are just plain fun.

Looking back a decade later, it would have been very beneficial if I didn't go to university but instead did an apprenticeship and developed from there, built up confidence and independence incrementally and forming my path iteratively.

Most of my friends and family actually went (are going) on such a path, from apprenticeship/trade-school to working and eventually advanced training or university later in life.

In Switzerland this model is widely appreciated and seems to be the default (I didn't look at numbers). Newly the (first) apprenticeship is called "Erstausbildung" (initial education), implying that it is the first of many steps in our education, revisited/expanded at later stages in life.

In many other (OECD) countries this seems not to be the case and college/university is regarded as the default or thing to aspire to for everyone. I personally don't agree with that notion and have become more and more convinced of a more continuous and flexible education that isn't necessarily tied to academics.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#380

Post by hajile » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #138

smitty1e wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother in law is an electrician. I had enough EE in college to change a light switch without burning the house down. However, that book-learnin' fell apart when confronted with troubleshooting a strangely wired room, and I got very polite while asking him over to bail me out. These fellows eschewing the ivory tower, where being of European extraction and bearing a Y-chromosome on the college campus is an indictme…

EE programs tend to focus on electronics, not electrical systems. But learning how house wiring works is a simple book away. But be careful - unlike electronics, house electrics can kill you. On the other hand, electricians have weird gaps in their knowledge. If I ask them to do something slightly out of the ordinary, this becomes apparent. For example, none of them understand inductive coupling, or even know what it…

Here in the US, the NEC specifies a one-foot separation for low voltage unless crossing at a perpendicular angle. Low voltage is generally a specialty, so a lot of electricians don’t know.

The bigger issue is that there are tons of electricians that never went through apprenticeships and who never picked up and read a copy of the code (which has major changes every three years). The result is a lot of cargo cult installation which may or may not actually be correct.