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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#371
post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

Also American, but was routed through, what was at the time, an experimental program called Integrated Math. Class was structured around word problems and the students were guided towards figuring out the formulas rather than rote memorization.

There was a ton of group work, which worked out really well for me, but if you didn't want to learn it was pretty easy to coast and let the group leader do most of the work / learning.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#372
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happened in Canada, is that curriculum is designed to teach to the weakest student in a subject. This is thought of as being fair, of helping, for of course everyone is intellectually equal. Thus, those who can accel, are denied their future, for those which will leave high school, and never touch (for example) advanced math again. Equality comes from recognising our differences, and enabling best outcomes for…

It is kinda ironic that the former Soviet Bloc, whose central ideology was built around equality, had a very streamed education system concentrated on recognizing talented individuals early, while the Anglosphere, usually renowned for its ceaseless competition, emphasizes equality at the cost of excellence now.

Equality was non existent in the Soviet Union. Technically a talented researcher would earn just as much a factory worker but the researcher would have access to apparatus granted privileges like living in a better apartment, occasionally shopping in an non empty store, access to better hospitals, and so on

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#373
post #121

When I started high school in Canada, my math grades were pretty bad. Probably in the 60%s (a C letter grade). I remember staring at a quadratic equation, struggling to understand why those 3 terms drew a curve. I had no intuition for it. The summer before 11th grade, my father decided he had enough. It was time to learn math, Soviet style. He sat me down for a few hours each morning with problems from 6th and 7th gr…

> ...Everyday he had a list of questions ready for me that he had judiciously picked.

Your story is very touching, thank you for sharing it.

It also emphasizes the importance of a motivated teacher. Also I believe that such parent's involvement makes the process and the subject of learning so much worthwhile.

It's not a secret that as parents we want/need to outsource the kids into schools just to free ourselves up for what we want/need to do. Yet paradoxically we want the kids to know no less than we know ourselves.

It's just a luck if kids come across a good teacher which would help the kids demonstrate to us parents that they are worth of our attention. Kind of backwards...

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bizarre. Where I am math and English remain king and queen of getting-on-the-schedule. Being "tested subjects" from very early grades, is the main reason. They've all but eliminated recess in elementary, and have reduced hours for things like art & music, to make sure they have plenty of time for them, since school prestige and funding rely heavily on testing well just in those two subjects.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

It's an open secret among educators that the brightest students learn to read at home. Early math is just practicing the same arithmetic over and over, because the logical skills for algebra just aren't present in a seven-year-old. Art, music, and gym are actually really important in early childhood development, because they develop motor skills. Gym gives gross motor skills and major muscular development, and art and music give fine motor control. Penmanship is also important for developing fine motor control. For young children who can't yet engage in much logical reasoning, developing motor skills is appropriate and important. We tend to think in adult terms about what is the right thing for kids to learn, but small children are not adults and need to develop skills that adults take for granted.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#375
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s very insightful - when I switched to US high school, the approach to math was baffling - everyone had programmable graphing calculators, whereas I wasn’t allowed any calculator at all, and took a lot longer to solve the most basic problems. Most questions were answered by the teacher as “it’s a formula, you follow it and memorize it” (which sounded ridiculous to me for the exact reasons above - I was taught to…

I never understood why graphing calculators were required for basic calculus or math courses. Always wondered if it was part of a marketing deal with the company that manufactured them. The course is said to require a particular make and model of graphing calculator.

I believe it is more of a standardization of knowledge when picking the tool for mathematics. TI-83 calculator is common and easily to have all the students to use the same calculator and provides various approach of how to solve it. If one student is a outlier (like using HP calculator), then it could be an issue since the instructor only have the knowledge of using TI-83 (or its variants), the instructor couldn't help that student since HP and other graphic calculators have different inputs, layouts, etc.

And not everyone is good at solving math alone without the aid of the calculator. Some people simply can't solve mathematics at all, maybe up to multiplication/division level is the best they can do. I am not good with mathematics myself and struggles with some advanced algebra. It is not the matter of trying to solve, it is matter of memorization of mathematics formula and equations that US Education drilled down so hard which is ironic when they said that calculators are forbidden to use during the exam while they are encouraging to use the calculators in class and homework... Their pedagogy is fucked and hypocritical.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#376
post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

I could do calculus, in high school and college, but I wasn't very happy about it. Until I took a physics class in college which happened to be intended for the physics majors. Did the professor ever just present an equation and ask us to learn it? No! Every Single Physics Equation was explained from first principles, using calculus - a lot of integrals. Finally we were seeing a practical application, where calculus was just a tool to get you where you needed to be.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#377
post #329
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's happened in Canada, is that curriculum is designed to teach to the weakest student in a subject. No, the curriculum is not watered down to meet the needs of the weakest students. Canada tends to align its curriculum to that of other western nations. On the other hand, when you're talking about math there is a bit of an issue where the background of teachers is mixed at the elementary level and students are n…

Maybe your province isn't too bad yet, but these things tend to spread: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-sc... With no advanced/honours tract, you have two choices. Subjects too difficult for a large portion of the class, or everyone gets education tailored to the least capable students. Clearly, they aren't removing advanced classes, then suddenly failing 1/2 the class...

As someone thinking of raising kids in Vancouver I was really disappointed by the honours stream being removed from VSB curriculum. If the school board truly wanted equality for their students they should be looking at external factors of why kids are not performing: do they have a place at home to complete homework? Do their parents value education? Do they believe in themselves?

I do believe that there is a natural difference in intelligence, but not enough to make the difference of a student getting into the honours stream or not. A lot of the kids say “I don’t get math” or “I’m just dumb” or they don’t have a stable household or family role models of success — all of which hold them back. Naturally these external problems are much harder for school boards to tackle so they would rather chop the legs off of honours students than address the students who come from a disadvantaged background.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#378
post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

That sounds wonderful! As a product of Indian education (that prioritizes rote learning), I wish I had been subjected to such a school, maybe then I (and majority of other kids) wouldn't have fallen out of learning math like we did.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#379
post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

I had a chance to compare the systems, too but my conclusions are completely different. Teachers at the physics/math lyceum I studied at were emotionally unstable psychopaths with mood swings. They could switch from calm "kids, if you don't understand something, please, don't hesitate to ask" to the screaming at the top of their lungs of "are you a stupid imbecile? what a moron you're to ask that" just a minute later.

It was all about rote memorization. Rules, theorems, axioms. Not just the way to prove or principle behind, but the textual representation (to the teacher's liking) word-to-word. Of course, there was a division of students into multiple groups, and those with important parents had an easier time. Any of their bullshit was always graded as "A". But those actively disliked could get "F" for a perfect work. A dot at the end of the sentence is missing? "Go back to the kindergarten where you belong". Something is crossed? "What is it, a toilet paper? Go use it for wiping your ass" (they could tear it apart in front of you). So, the representation/look of the work always came first. A teacher was a lawyer, prosecutor, and a judge at the same time (just what some Americans wish to have as a state): you don't like something, go f___ yourself.

The textbooks. If you compare the best Soviet ones with some average American, you can come to the conclusion that Soviet are so good ("exercises are something to behold", "high quality in their expression", etc). But the best American books wouldn't give a single chance to the Soviet ones. In fact, even some Russian Empire textbooks so much better than Soviet (not to mention Russian), they are getting popular among parents for homeschooling (schools can't use books unauthorized by the ministry of education). The best American and pre-Soviet textbooks are born out of lectures, author's personal experience with students. Soviet authors are disinterested observers who don't care. Textbooks, apparently, were the product of central planning like process (so they were getting worse and worse, the further they went from Russian Empire epoch).

And finally, a thing that really deeply touched me at a western University. A teacher when asked a question once said "I don't know, I have to check it". Holly f... Someone who openly admitted they don't know something, no freaking way! Back at the lyceum it would be "Shut your mouth with your stupid question, we don't have time for that". Then she would find the answer and during the next class say something like "now when we have a few minutes, I'll do you a favor, here is the answer... What a moron you're not to be able to conceive this yourself".

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. Is that for real? If true, this is ridiculous. Do American authorities want to introduce some kind of education for plebs? How is such low standard for basic education is even acceptable in the modern world? It’s not only about “beauty of math” but at least basic math is required to help develop some specific cogn…

Yes it's TRUE. In SF the schools district removed Algebra from the middle school curriculum. You should read The Dictators Handbook, it details why dismantling education piece by piece is a great way to stay in power. You'd expect it in a dictatorship but not in SF.

It appears that that move has increased enrollment in higher level math classes in high school: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/SF-schools-mov...

See also some of the motivation behind the change: https://priceonomics.com/why-did-san-francisco-schools-stop-...

I would argue part of the problem with the American system is that trying to rush students through a rigid curriculum leaves the teachers no choice but to teach by rote memorization and cookie-cutter problems. Slowing down the curriculum is part (but not all) of the fix.

Still, whether or not this policy is good, it takes a lot of spin to turn "San Fransisco is starting algebra a year later" into "witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools", which is what you claimed.

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