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It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

simonwillison.net

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Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate very well here, because this suggests to me that the interview process did not work well. Do you want to hire someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes, or someone who can make amazing contributions to real software projects? Most companies want malleable, fungible engineers. Most companies are not stable, something is usually in flux -- projects, te…

I'd say I'm in a qualitatively similar position as you. If I'm going to interact with a candidate in any capacity, I always spend at least 30 seconds to skim their resume if I have the means to. When I'm acting as a hiring manager for a role, I read through applicant's materials in detail before deciding whether to advance them in the process. It's at least 50% of my work time, and my technical work suffers. I commun…

> When I'm acting as a hiring manager for a role

Yes, I'm not usually in this role. I don't find managers conducting technical interviews a good use of time, they are better spent on soft skills -- discussing previous projects, career goals, assessing team fit, answering questions about company culture/comp/perks/etc.

> I read through applicant's materials in detail before deciding whether to advance them in the process.

I don't usually filter candidates in this way. Recruiters send us candidates that are eligible for a phone/video screen, i.e. do they meet the hiring criteria. This is where the resume/materials are looked at. The resume is also useful to figure out where to funnel inbound candidates -- are they backend engineers, frontend, etc. It depends on the hiring pipeline.

In any case, from a purely technical evaluation perspective, the resume is inconsequential. Where did you go to school? How many jobs have you had? What awards have you won? Literally none of this matters and is utterly meaningless when it comes to your ability to do work with me and my colleagues. Resumes are ripe with bias-footguns that I try very hard to avoid -- cronyism, elite education, privilege, wealth, immigrant status, etc.

In my experience, and the experience of the majority of my employers and colleagues, it's more fair to evaluate without this information. The red flags and strong positive/negative signals are elsewhere. The resume is almost entirely useless.

> It's at least 50% of my work time, and my technical work suffers.

I would suggest closer partnership with your recruiting team and trying to communicate what you are looking for more succinctly to them so that they can deliver you a stack of candidates worth talking to. If you are at a remotely large company (>1000 employees) then unless you are bootstrapping a new team/org/whatever you shouldn't be spending this much time hiring. Your team is going to suffer.

> I also regularly receive followup emails from rejected candidates saying that they thought the interview was the most fair and thorough of anywhere they applied, they understood why they didn't get the job, and in the process they learned where they need to focus on to be a better fit for the same type of role in the future.

To be honest, we get the same feedback. Most candidates tell me that it's the best process they've ever experienced.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate very well here, because this suggests to me that the interview process did not work well. Do you want to hire someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes, or someone who can make amazing contributions to real software projects? Most companies want malleable, fungible engineers. Most companies are not stable, something is usually in flux -- projects, te…

> Most companies want malleable, fungible engineers. Most companies are not stable, something is usually in flux -- projects, teams, organizations, business models. Most managers would rather have someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes. Okay well that's a bit surprising. > But that is not how I personally hire, it's just reality. I'd rather have someone I can work with. In my experience, a lot of…

> You don't even read the resumes of the 2-3 people per week you decide to interview? The resume is what the applicant wants to tell you about themselves. If I apply for a job, I would be sure to read the position description and read up a bit about the company, their work and people.

There's more here to unpack than I have time to so I'll be brief. The recruiter should screen your resume/background. If you're already being asked questions on a call or whatever then the resume has already done its job, in my opinion. I haven't used a resume in the last several jobs I've had, since I just connect through a former colleague and get fast tracked to a phone screen.

Consider the power dynamics in applying for a job. Ideally you, as a candidate, want to exit with a mutually beneficial arrangement. Initially, the employer holds all the cards. You are relatively powerless. Consider if a resume holds information that helps a company hire fairly and hire well. (Beyond "do you work in this field" it does not, in my opinion.)

You have to be a fit for them. Unless it's a two person startup, you're not going to change the company to meet your culture. You are the item being filtered for.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say I'm in a qualitatively similar position as you. If I'm going to interact with a candidate in any capacity, I always spend at least 30 seconds to skim their resume if I have the means to. When I'm acting as a hiring manager for a role, I read through applicant's materials in detail before deciding whether to advance them in the process. It's at least 50% of my work time, and my technical work suffers. I commun…

> When I'm acting as a hiring manager for a role Yes, I'm not usually in this role. I don't find managers conducting technical interviews a good use of time, they are better spent on soft skills -- discussing previous projects, career goals, assessing team fit, answering questions about company culture/comp/perks/etc. > I read through applicant's materials in detail before deciding whether to advance them in the proc…

Each organization is going to do things differently obviously. To clarify, a hiring manager within my context is the person that's responsible for the process of hiring for a specific role. We almost always have individual technical contributors act as hiring managers. They set the technical bar, design interview plans, and act as a consistent point of contact for the candidate. Team managers are distinct from that, although they may be the ones pushing to hire to fill a role for their team.

In my experience, relying on recruiters to filter out candidates into a "high quality" pile isn't effective. That's where the resume bias tends to slip in.

Individual contributors spending time recruiting is also organization specific. I'm probably considered the highest value software engineer on my team. Part of that is because I actively work to make sure I'm replaceable. Most projects I've worked on are documented and tested enough that other engineers can step in and take over as needed. I also often turn down fun projects in favor of mentoring more junior coworkers to do them. On the hiring side, we maintain a high bar and hire for long term success. As a result, I trust everyone on the team to keep the ship on course.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#374
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? You don't need to be passionate about your work to be a great employee. Many days I don't feel like working and I'm not motivated. But I still do (I think) a great job and try my best. Passion is bullshit. Passion is useful in some cases, but it's not requirement to do a great job.

>Passion is bullshit. Passion is useful in some cases, but it's not requirement to do a great job. I strongly disagree. Maybe for other professions, sure. But to write great software requires passion. Showing up and doing the bare minimum leads to the garbage software that proliferates the world today. Not that that really matters to the individual; if you're doing what's asked of you and nothing more, then more powe…

Sucking at what you do != not being passionate.

Passionate people can also suck at their jobs. I did some terrible things when I was inexperienced.

There's nothing special about software. It's like asking the builder of your house how passionate they are about building houses. What I care about is how professional and experienced they are, not their passion.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#375
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a good engineer goes beyond being good at coding. Many great coders suck at communication or are just not nice to be around. I've seen amazing "coders" not being hired because they can't have a good conversation during the interview. I'm sure they're the same ones that complain about interviews being too hard.

>I'm sure they're the same ones that complain about interviews being too hard It was a fine and relevant comment until that part ._.

Haha I shouldn't have included it, it was petty.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#376
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, Google actually has a 'no jerks' policy and values being a good team player more than pure technical brilliance. Being a good engineer gets you L4 (mid) or low L5 level at Google. Growing beyond that is mostly about soft skills and influencing other people - that's not compatible with being a dick. It probably wasn't the case for him in 2015 yet, but these days google has a mandatory 'googleyness' behavioral r…

I joined in 2014 as L4 (I think), and I remember having some googleyness interviews even back then. But I could be remembering wrong.

I dont think its unique to google that companies want to filter out people who are "dicks". Every company i have ever had an interview at has done behavioural interviews for that purpose.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#377
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are over qualified, like having published several games on your own, it's not like they don't think you can do they job, they might think you will get bored and miserable.

Maybe the candidate just wants a nice quiet easy job so they can reduce their stress and put their focus on other parts of their life?

That's EXACTLY the reason I'm in my current job. I got asked several times whether I want to be a team leader, product owner or even assistant VP of engineering, and if I'm sure I only want to be a programmer.

And I said to the director of engineering who recruited me, more or less this:

"I can do all those and be rather good at them, too. But right now I want to focus on my physical and mental health so I want to work as a senior programmer with minimum supervision who takes ownership of big features or refactorings, and to be knee-deep in the code. All other soft skills that I have I only want to utilize to become the best colleague that you have."

My honesty was highly appreciated and I got an immediate job offer. I like the job. It's relatively chill, the colleagues are nice, the challenges are doable, and there's almost no pressure. I am mostly okay working for the company.

So long story short, I completely agree with you: sometimes you need a chill job so you can focus more on your life.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it called.. Market failure? It's got a name, I don't remember it. The job market doesn't support certain overqualified people. I gave you an example. Rationally, you'd think that a cashier that works 3x faster than other cashiers can make 3x the income. Or even 2x. A plumber could do that, or a woodworker (they might have to start their own company, but they can do it). But a cashier relies on employers and t…

> Rationally, you'd think that a cashier that works 3x faster than other cashiers can make 3x the income. Or even 2x. I don't think so, because a cashier's main job is just to wait for customers to show up. They are faster at clearing bottlenecks when a lot of customers show up at once, but they don't handle anywhere close to 3x as many customers over the course of their entire shift.

That's going to depend on the store and the shift.

I'm sure you understand that I gave an example that's easy to understand and I'm not trying to discuss the intricate details of being a high performing cashier.

If it's really needed I can come up with a different example, but otherwise just assume it's not a neighborhood pet store, but a very busy and successful supermarket with 35 check out registers that are always busy.

But you can just as easily swap it with an overqualified dentist assistant that provides a massive value by detecting things the dentist misses.

Or a engineer at a mine that's so damn good, that he repeatedly detects machinery failure 5 minutes before it breaks catastrophically (and some of these machines cost millions).

Or a bricklayer that lays three times faster than any other bricklayer. It doesn't matter.

The point is they are supportive roles that can't function independently of the corporation, yet will never receive a salary that's proportional to the value they provide.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I'm acting as a hiring manager for a role Yes, I'm not usually in this role. I don't find managers conducting technical interviews a good use of time, they are better spent on soft skills -- discussing previous projects, career goals, assessing team fit, answering questions about company culture/comp/perks/etc. > I read through applicant's materials in detail before deciding whether to advance them in the proc…

Each organization is going to do things differently obviously. To clarify, a hiring manager within my context is the person that's responsible for the process of hiring for a specific role. We almost always have individual technical contributors act as hiring managers. They set the technical bar, design interview plans, and act as a consistent point of contact for the candidate. Team managers are distinct from that,…

> To clarify, a hiring manager within my context is the person that's responsible for the process of hiring for a specific role. > ... > Team managers are distinct from that, although they may be the ones pushing to hire to fill a role for their team.

I haven't encountered this before.

> In my experience, relying on recruiters to filter out candidates into a "high quality" pile isn't effective. That's where the resume bias tends to slip in.

I agree but I haven't seen anywhere (large companies) where this doesn't happen. There's always some intermediary filter before the resumes end up in the hands of technical staff.

I can't imagine why having recruiters involved prevents any of the other things you mention. ICs can design interview loops, help write job postings, work with recruiters to define and clarify what they are looking for.

Regarding your last paragraph, that sounds like the basic bar for most senior/staff engineer positions I've encountered. You're a force multiplier for others. That's the job.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. You wouldn’t want an unlucky candidate.

My apologies to the HN Gods for this low quality comment. But that struck me as extremely funny. On a serious dystopian note, luck really does play the dominant role in everything.

All jokes aside, in my experience it's nearly a FIFO, with obviously unqualified candidates being weeded out. If you have 3-400 people apply for a position, you maybe phone screen somewhere from 4-10 and by the time you're closer to 10 you've already conducted 3-4 onsites and put out at least one offer.
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