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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#371

Post by fallingknife »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

I am always amazed how many people say things like this while comfortably living behind the economic walls of their rich nation typing on a phone made by near slaves on the other side of it.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#372

Post by bwb »

bluthund wrote: post #249
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

What a sick mentality. Globalism and mass immigration is the destructor of culture. Nationalism is the only rational mentality for long term sustainability. A people should never be ruled by those who have no blood in the soil or by those who don't serve the needs of that people. Nationalism is what makes great nations. You can forget about that for a while and play the game of the inevitable failure of multicultural…

Eh? What a weird response and I can't tell if you are a troll given the age of your account...

Globalism is one of the best things to happen to our planet. I look forward to the next 1,000 years and hopefully reaching a point where everyone realizes we have a responsibility to every other person on this planet, as well as the planet itself. And, that a base level of respect and acceptance should be granted to every person on this planet. Nationalism is an interesting step on which we climbed. But, it is an arbitrary marker to divide people and I look forward to history washing it away in xxx years.

I do not think people should be ruled, I think people should rule themselves through some form of democracy.

Are you advocating something other than democracy?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#373

Post by dogorman »

pell wrote: post #205
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> Democratic institutions [...] NGOs"

What is it that makes non-government organizations so democratic? Do they let the general public vote for their leaders?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#374

Post by krzyk »

trasz wrote: post #315
krzyk wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there) We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows. Your description looks more like one for U…

Poland, welfare? :-D As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

I have never worked using that "way", always the normal one.

What you describe is used by firms that you can smell a mile away and don't even try to work there.

I'm sure western Europe has similar companies that abuse employer rights.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#375

Post by alkonaut »

hutzlibu wrote: post #322
alkonaut wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendum on independenc Parts of states do not simply arrange independence referendums without approval from the central government. This would be “cracked down” in every single country on earth. It may well be that Catalonia deserve independence but it’s not exactly surprising or authoritarian of a central government to stop such attempts. Scotland…

But how could they have proceed legaly, when the central government made it clear, they never respect their right of self determination?

By trying to move that opinion. It might take three or ten generations but it’s hard to see an independence movement go faster without violence.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#376

Post by wildmanx »

eperfa wrote: post #301
Nesze wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they only got 45.2% of the total votes Think the figures are somewhat higher: Party/FPTP: 49.27%/47.89% [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_e...

Sorry, you are right, I quoted the wrong number. The point is the same though: due to the nature of the Hungarian voting system, the winner can easily get more mandates than what would follow from the raw results, and this is why it is beneficial to manipulate the voting areas.

So, just like the US then.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#377

Post by mejutoco »

apexalpha wrote: post #23
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

What's the point of becoming one nation if everyone has different languages?

Leverage against common threads or to accomplish common goals. Besides, there are many nations/countries with several official languages already. Having several languages does not invalidate all the advantages.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#378

Post by bwb »

fallingknife wrote: post #371
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

I am always amazed how many people say things like this while comfortably living behind the economic walls of their rich nation typing on a phone made by near slaves on the other side of it.

I am always amazed by the assumptions people make :)

What do you disagree with?

I have family living in China, and I live in Portugal. Why do you like nationalism so much and feel so threatened by the loss of your nation as an identity? Why is it not enough to just be human surrounded by other humans who are identical to you?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#379

Post by ricardobeat »

speeder wrote: post #345
rbanffy wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works. And many people rightly saw that the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming, not because anything he did in particular. Brazillians voted for Bolsonaro not because he is…

> the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming

Ah, the familiar sound of facts being twisted and turned to conform to what you wish reality had been. We’ve been hearing this same rhetoric of denial since before their government ended. Somehow we should believe that a country of 200 million people was just “going through its motions” for over a decade and the figures in power were just spectators. I guess that leaves room to say the same about the current government - the ongoing destruction of the economy is “not their fault” either.

There are a thousand different policies implemented in those years that helped the country achieve growth. A huge number of them already reversed in the past 5-6 years. Hand waving all of it as “the commodities market boomed” is of such a despicable, willful ignorance.

EDIT: on why I find this so aggravating: to have a decent government you need people to vote based on proposals, political stance on specific issues, policies, not empty promises (like ending corruption). This kind of discourse just continues to poison the well by taking focus away from real economic/political issues and into a red vs blue team mentality.

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