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Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

reuters.com

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Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#371
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that imply that the difference in hitting a vein with the injection vs. staying intramuscular would be where in the body the protein travels to and causes an immune response? Nothing is ever that simple, but of cases with effects consistent with the protein being in the blood stream with consequences to the heart and brain, if that were a factor, it would be both testable and avoidable, and provide the explanati…

It's been hypothesized that AstraZeneca's vaccine is more likely to cause clots when accidentally injected intravenously: https://www.sortiraparis.com/news/coronavirus/articles/24662...

The adenoviruses already attach to red blood cells and have the blood clotting issue with or without the extra genetic load they carry in the COVID-19 vaccine case. It's been known of over a decade and I wonder why no precautions are prescribed before and after the shots.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#372
post #35

This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor that probably no conclusions at all can be drawn from it. And I usually find myself defending the use of noisy and/or small data in similar situations.

Israel had the same findings though.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with covid than take these vaccines. As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources that informed your position.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

> For example in recent weeks a whole lot of people were surprised to see the lab leak hypothesis go straight from "debunked conspiracy theory" to Biden ordering it to be investigated, apparently without any intermediate points.

I absolutely believe this was from a lab leak and I also closely follow the science.

The question is, why would you want a potentially man-made virus (via gain of function research) in your system at all?

With the vaccine, you teach your immune system to see Covid-19 right away and take care of it at first sight.

Without it, you have to GET Covid-19, have it embed itself inside all of your vital organs, then have your immune system hopefully slowly learn and take care of it. Meanwhile it is sitting in your heart, liver, lungs, kidneys and pancreas doing damage that is coming to light in more and more studies.

Your an adult. Your choice, but in my mind this is a poor choice.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing. Expressing spike protein and being destroyed by the immune system is a disruption of the normal cellular function. No, mRNA in general is not toxic but the mRNA vaccines specifically absolutely are. That's the entire point of them, to train the immune system by actually giving it targets to practice on. However the targets are our own cells, in this case. We could go the…

> Expressing spike protein and being destroyed by the immune system is a disruption of the normal cellular function. That’s how the immmune system works in general, with or without the vaccine. > what you're saying is that there's effectively no difference to the recipient beyond the fact that the artificial self-replicating mRNA might be higher "quality" in some way It’s the difference between taking a known dose wi…

There are many viruses in the world that have never been wiped out, and which I've never caught, nor have any other people I know.

The assumption that eventually SARS-CoV-2 will infect 100% of the population is a common modelling assumption. When I went looking for validation of it, I couldn't find any.

As for known dosages, as I say above, I couldn't find any information comparing dosages or cell death levels of vaccines vs actual viral infections. That would certainly be helpful to know, assuming such reports were reliable.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

> For example in recent weeks a whole lot of people were surprised to see the lab leak hypothesis go straight from "debunked conspiracy theory" to Biden ordering it to be investigated, apparently without any intermediate points. I absolutely believe this was from a lab leak and I also closely follow the science. The question is, why would you want a potentially man-made virus (via gain of function research) in your s…

I think there's a common assumption in some of these replies that eventual infection is a P=1.0 event.

This is a common claim by public health authorities and scientists routinely put this assumption in their models, but there's no clear backing for it. And if you look at the history of outbreaks of respiratory viruses, actually they don't infect everyone.

If you relax the assumption that the choice is (virus | vaccine) to be a more accurate (vaccine | {virus | nothing}) type condition, the vaccine looks less attractive. Phrased another way, we can:

1. Get a virus that appears to have been leaked and/or enhanced by incompetent scientists, and their incompetence was then denied and covered up.

2. Get a vaccine that may or may not have been developed by incompetent scientists, but if they are incompetent then for sure there will be/currently is another coverup.

3. Do nothing. The expected likelihood of this is unclear, partly because despite decades of research epidemiology can't predict case curves for a respiratory virus, but given my lived experience so far the chance of remaining healthy seems high.

Clearly, for our bodies the best result is to have no virus and no vaccine. mRNA vaccines were hard to develop because the body treats foreign RNA as very dangerous and has lots of mechanisms to destroy it, hence the chemical manipulations required to bypass those mechanisms.

You're saying that whilst scenario (3) is clearly attractive, the chance of it happening is so low that it's not worth considering. I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence that this is true, and I've seen evidence that it's not true, and at any rate the cost of losing this bet is that with very high certainty I get a nasty bug and feel bad for a few days. Well, OK. I've done that before. Also feeling wiped out for a few days is, presumably not coincidentally, a very common reported side effect of the vaccine. More reasons to take a gamble and go for scenario (3).

In practice of course all this is distorted by government action. My expectation is that I will eventually take it because government scientists are determined to push collective solutions over individual solutions like Ivermectin, and they can make life arbitrarily painful in their quest to make hold-outs submit. My hope is that if that does eventually happen, there will be more data, more certainty and doctors will have more experience with side effects.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike the Russell Teapot, the claim on whether vaccines are safe, or not, is verifiable. I am sure this is uncomfortable to many, but you are taking the position that many did take with tobacco, or asbestos. They were safe. Until they weren't. Human life is limited in length. The burden of proof rests on those tampering with the natural (ie the human body) over the un-natural. The counterfactual. Should we feed supe…

It seems that you are arguing that human life span being finite makes every medical assertion effectively testable, but it does not. You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span". And the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order of things is as unscientific as it gets. I am not going to expect anyone with a half brain to verify the health…

>>>> You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span".

I genuinely dont understand youe point here. Are you saying that 7B people arent enough to test every medical claim. Are you saying that because we cant determine with precision life span that we cant precisely understand medical results ?

>>>> the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order of things is as unscientific as it gets.

The fallacy of misusing the naturalistic fallacy

According to the critique made, we should not claim that natural things are better than scientific experimentation. Yet, my original claim was not to use nature to derive a notion of how things "ought" to be organized. Rather, as scientists, we respect nature for the extent of its experimentation. The high level of statistical significance given by a very large sample cannot be ignored.

Nature may not have arrived at the best solution to a problem we consider important, but there is reason to believe that it is smarter than our technology based only on statistical significance.

The question about what kinds of systems work (as demonstrated by nature) is different than the question about what working systems ought to do.

We can take a lesson from nature —and time— about what kinds of organizations (such as human vaccines, or viruses) are robust against, or even benefit from, shocks, and in that sense systems should be structured in ways that allow them to function.

Conversely, we cannot derive the structure of a functioning system from what we believe the outcomes ought to be.

>>>>> I am not going to expect anyone with a half brain to verify the health effects of mixing milk powder with and without a Bible below it,

See above. It is not the same claim. Being cautious about taking actions you dont fully understand; is not the same as believing you understand certain actions

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that you are arguing that human life span being finite makes every medical assertion effectively testable, but it does not. You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span". And the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order of things is as unscientific as it gets. I am not going to expect anyone with a half brain to verify the health…

>>>> You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span". I genuinely dont understand youe point here. Are you saying that 7B people arent enough to test every medical claim. Are you saying that because we cant determine with precision life span that we cant precisely understand medical results ? >>>> the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order…

> Are you saying that 7B people arent enough to test every medical claim

There are conditions where there are currently single-digit known sufferers among thar 7B, far fron sufficient to adequately test even one claim about that condition or its treatment, so, yes, 7B people isn’t enough to test every medical claim.

> Are you saying that because we cant determine with precision life span that we cant precisely understand medical results ?

Since one of the questions about medical results is about effect on lifespan, the former would certainly imply the latter.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that you are arguing that human life span being finite makes every medical assertion effectively testable, but it does not. You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span". And the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order of things is as unscientific as it gets. I am not going to expect anyone with a half brain to verify the health…

>>>> You still don't have an infinite population and you still do not have an repeteable way to measure "life span". I genuinely dont understand youe point here. Are you saying that 7B people arent enough to test every medical claim. Are you saying that because we cant determine with precision life span that we cant precisely understand medical results ? >>>> the claim that there is a "natural" and "un natural" order…

> Nature may not have arrived at the best solution to a problem we consider important, but there is reason to believe that it is smarter than our technology based only on statistical significance.

Funny. The two examples that you have used as "thought harmless but then found out to be harmful", tobacco and asbestos, are as natural _as it gets_. One is a leaf and the other is a rock. They have in fact been in use _literally_ since the STONE AGE. Dunno how to redefine "natural" to not include them without also excluding domestication, most cooking or practically all of civilization.

You can definitely take a lesson here. The "natural order of things" is either on the eye of the beholder and therefore useless as a scientific concept or outright amongst the most dangerous thing to happen to humanity, and hardly "smarter than our technology" which is what detected its harmfulness in the first place. Your choice.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#379
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s alarming that I keep hearing about people who have lost people from a vaccine. It’s now at a higher rate than the virus itself. I’m awaiting Pfizer but I’m quite concerned. Which vaccine did she take?

I want to emphasize that these events are rare, although probably not as rare as you we think, and that I recommend to people to get vaccinated. That being said, I don't know a single person personally (I live in Colorado, with lots of family and friends in Virginia,NC, and DC) that has died or been hospitalized for COVID, and I happen to know 2 people who suffered cardiac arrest from the Pfizer vaccine, with one (my…

Thanks for a very interesting perspective. Wish you and your family the best.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are conflating "rough enough to take a medication" with being "so sick you are in the hospital with covid." crazy comparison. I got my vaccine and the second shot hit me hard enough that I had to take some ibuprofen. Not a single regret and it wasn't that bad. you are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not conflating anything? I'm only pointing out, under prospect theory, people value avoiding a loss over a risk for a gain. It's rational for someone who is currently healthy, in an age group with a 0.2% of COVID turning into anything more than a standard cold/flu, to turn down an immediate risk (orders of magnitude larger) that they will feel unhealthy for a couple days.

> in an age group with a 0.2% of COVID turning into anything more than a standard cold/flu

except that's not the statistic... that's the death statistic for that age group. the odds of getting sicker than cold/flu are higher still and you will get much much sicker than the vaccine will give most people.

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