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What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

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Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#371
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about businesses here, not your private amusement, though. As a business you need to ask yourself: and who pays for the time it takes to educate at least two employees on this "basic and elementary matter"? If it really were so "basic and elementary", how come even critical infrastructure regularly falls victim to the most primitive of ransomware attacks? Misconfigured email and network access settings,…

It certainly helps if one begins with experienced engineers. I am not talking about personal projects, I am discussing funded startups. If your team has not run servers on their own in the past, get a different team. It is not as if there is not a giant population of grey beards with this knowledge seeking work... I accept your points, but far too many inexperienced devOps are given keys that should not have them. Fr…

If something were truly basic and elementary, you should be able to do it after reading a book or passing a multiple-choice test. Now you're saying "if your team isn't experienced, get a more experienced team." Seems like we're moving the goalposts here.

If it were so basic, the DevOps person they hired should've been able to do it after taking a 6-7 hour docker course.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#372
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, to me it looks pretty good. And there's reason to believe it'd be better on freeways. I'd definitely pay a few bucks per hour for my car to drive me to Southern California while I read a book.

What I don't understand is: why don't you take a train instead? I have never been to US, but whenever I hear about self driving cars I think: why don't people just use public transport if they don't want to drive?

Urban geography: In 1947, the US started to build very low density, cheap, mass produced suburbs. Along with this, most American cities have very little mixed use zoning, and large parking requirements, both of which increase the typical distance a person would have to travel to live a normal life, and make each theoretical train station/bus stop less economically sensible. When in Spain you might have many tens of thousands of residents within a 1 km radius of a subway line, you will not not get one thousand in a deep suburb. Therefore, for the same total population, a US public transit system (outside of NYC, and maybe Chicago) is going to be far worse than the equivalent on most European cities.

This is self perpetuating: Changes in urban planning that would allow most homes in the US to be good residences without a car would involve not just demolishing most cities and starting over. This isn't even just about demolishing suburbs: Even downtowns are built in ways that optimized for the car. Go to your favorite mapping app, and look at, say, St Louis. You will find many buildings are just parking lots, very few storefronts, very wide streets designed to be driven at 60 km/h, and with very few pedestrian crossings... All the infrastructure that makes it easy for most workers to live 20-30 of wherever they work just makes building a useful public transport system unfeasible for a city, and even more so when most voters would be unable to use it.

The same problem is there in small cities, and even villages. A small town in Italy that lives from summer tourism is going to be easy to deal with even without using public transport, and just walking. The American equivalent is unmanageable without a car.

Those that want to avoid driving in the US end up either paying people to drive for them all the time, or live in the pedestrian friendly parts of a handful of cities. And if you haven't visited the US, you probably also haven't seen how expensive is to live in those areas. So, if anything, it's much easier to live without a car if you are a pretty wealthy tech worker than if you are a server at a restaurant, or work at a retailer. The less your job pays, the harder it is to not drive a car.

Imagine a couple of a bank teller and an insurance agent. If they need to move to Madrid, it's very likely that they will find living arrangements where it's easier to go to work via public transport, as most places do. If you do the equivalent in Houston TX, it's almost guaranteed one of them will have to drive to live a comfortable life, and most likely both.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#374

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

Yes seriously this is A level BS. I in fact own an ID.4 Max, and while it's a swell car you hardly save much buying this over a same class Tesla 3/Y where I live.

It's clear that the autonomous driving has to execute locally on the car, so there is no physical basis to any "cost saving" other than sales mechanism optimization. Boo.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is 100% a way to extract more money from consumers, especially non financially stable consumers, while lying to all of our faces Isn't this hyperbolic? I split time between at least two cities. Being able to pay as I go represents a real saving in cost, time and attention. Sometimes buying is better than renting. But sometimes there are economies of centralization. AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy…

It's the same argument that BMW made, and it's just as faulty here. They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extr…

My Jeep has features I can 'unlock' for a one-time fee. $500 will give me navigation, they constantly email me with offers of $75, $150 off

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same argument that BMW made, and it's just as faulty here. They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extr…

They said that instead of paying $5000 upfront for a server, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $1000/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new server for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extract more money in the long run.

This is very different because you didn’t buy a server. If you were talking about a leased car instead of a purchased car it would be a bit more comparable, but still wouldn’t work. Because with a lease you have the option to buy it in the end.

Even a rental car doesn’t quite match, since you are in a particular car.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#377
I pay, in my country from Eastern Europe mind you, around $15 for a taxi to drive me around the town doing my chores (groceries, take a prescription, maybe a little detour to check something new in other side of the town), in an hour (checked multiple times). I would be willing to pay $8.5/h right now. This would kill both Uber/ride share and taxi industry, if it comes true, as we know it. Probably those industries will evolve to something else, as is always the case with tech. I cannot wait to see the future.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not bought but we rented a house where the owner padlocked 2 bedrooms shut and said if we wanted to use them it was an extra $200 a month to use them as home offices.

That's......beyond dumb. Like, if you don't pay him the extra $200, he's not extracting any extra value from these bedrooms. It's not like they can be rented to someone else in the meantime. So.....why do it in the first place?

Because he doesn’t lose anything, but has the possibility of gaining something.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#379
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla charges $10k for not really self driving, with the promise that it will improve, and you should buy it now, because the price will increase in the future. I.e. they make you pay for something you don't have, with no guarantee that you will have it later. If it isn't a money grab, I don't know what is. And of course you can take a loan on that, so it isn't an upfront cost either. At least, with VW system, you pa…

> At least, with VW system, you pay when you use it. Doesn't work in your area, you don't pay. "AWS has billed us tens of thousands of dollars because we forgot to turn something off/confusing billing" hasn't taught anyone anything? There's nothing honest about VW's approach. They won't have self-driving either, it will be at best the same as Tesla's. And yet, they want to charge you, and charge you significantly mor…

You're inventing hypotheticals to say why they're going to charge you more, without evidence.

Pay-per-minute autonomous driving is far more like old pay-per-minute phone plans than it is mystery-AWS-data-charges. You know when it's driving and when it's not. There's no unforeseeable per-lambda charges about it.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#380
post #274
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes him tell everyone he's happy but that's where it ends. He's got too much pride to tell the truth. And those aren't quirks; they are big stinking problems. Never write down a problem as something that isn't one. I owned a Merc 190E once that was a bag of problems. My life got better and I got happier the day I acknowledged them and got rid of it.

> It makes him tell everyone he's happy but that's where it ends. He's got too much pride to tell the truth. This seems to be a very 21st century phenomenon; product marketing gets replaced by cult membership. You don't buy a Tesla to experience a great car, you buy Tesla to tell everyone how great the experience is.

It’s a very human problem from like 40k years ago. We evolved to belong to tribes and feel most comfortable in them. The difference is that with how mobile we are now, both physically and as far as our ability to communicate, we can now form tribes not based on our family and geographic location (which often times doesn’t fit us all that well) but based on what products we consume: cars we buy, video games we play, music we listen to, etc. These consumer tribes are exactly like every other tribe we have formed before, just look novel because of the focus of them. This is why you’ll see people talk about how “the Harley meet up guys are just the nicest people”. It’s only partially about the product, mostly about the sense of belonging.

And before anyone calls this sad (which it might or might not be), consider that the alternative is either isolation by rejecting all forms of tribalism, or tribes formed around more harmful old school ideas (religious cults, violence-based tribes, tribes based on race/gender/etc.), or tribes we were born into and have no choice to leave because we can’t just buy the services of a farmer, a plumber, or a babysitter and have to rely exclusively on our tribe for those kinds of needs.

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