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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#371

Post by 1_over_n »

gerdesj wrote: post #293
ozim wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that guy with $1M won't be willing to drop like $50k (2x your net worth) on a lawyer just to squash you? He must have possibility to earn $100k in process to do that. Well unless you really pissed him off. If you earn $25k a year and he spends $50k in one year to take your cake. Well unless he really is your competitor that can make use of your defeat he still needs 2 years to get even. Then it pr…

Quite. I run a company with roughly £1.25M turnover per annum, so seem to fit the $1M guy example. There is no way on earth that I would look at my "value" and compare it with a £50K "value" to decide on my legal "battle-worthiness." It is quite likely that we both have similar (to the same power of 10) insurance for whatever it is we are duking it out over. Anyway this is all a bit circumspect. Against a company wit…

It seems like the theme here is asymmetry in legal firepower & resources between entities.

I do personally feel like that the asymmetry is smaller between elastic and AWS than the say an indie dev and a company with $1M revenue for various reasons.

This doesn't mean that there still isn't a meaningful asymmetry between elastic and AWS.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#372

Post by manigandham »

fallat wrote: post #181
manigandham wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Elastic website has a dedicated page to explain: https://www.elastic.co/what-is/elasticsearch "Elasticsearch is a distributed, free and open search and analytics engine for all types of data, including textual, numerical, geospatial, structured, and unstructured. Elasticsearch is built on Apache Lucene and was first released in 2010..." I suggest understanding what it is first before comparing it to other databas…

A lot of databases handle many types of data.

Are you actually interested in learning about it or are you just criticizing the site?

Maybe try the Wikipedia article then: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticsearch

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#373

Post by proddata »

pas wrote: post #327
jrochkind1 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mentioning lucene raises an interesting question... what if lucene adopted the SSPL license that Elastic is for their own product... could Elastic's own business model actually survive that?

Elastic contributed to Lucene. (They have committers as PMCs.) If Lucene had adopted SSPL they would have been forced to fork. But basically nothing really interesting happens at the Lucene level for ES anymore. (Sure, there's always a lot to speed up, optimize, etc. But anyone who buys ES needs the fancy stuff, security/audit/management, not a few percent more RAM efficiency.)

Sorry, but this is not true at all.

Some of the biggest changes within ES come from Lucene, like _massive_ reduction in memory footprint, enabling ES to use cases not even possible before.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#374

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

hospadar wrote: post #284
damon_c wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a non-starter? I have a few ElasticSearch clusters that have been running for years with zero effort/downtime/hassle.

Personal experience is that AWS elasticsearch has often been missing some really useful stuff, index rebalancing, some of the utility endpoints that avoid me having to spend forever rebuilding indexes, etc. I'd be a little spooked to run something really huge and customer-facing (maybe it's possible and I'm a n00b, but for the money we pay, it should be n00b friendly). It's always great (really, it was quite easy to…

This was my experience too: the AWS ES hosted offering was ok, but we had an outage and some associated needs and we basically lost all of our data.

However, we found that running our own cluster on EC2 with Cloudformation was relatively painless.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#375

Post by dijit »

busterarm wrote: post #222
dijit wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the amount of negativity towards Elastic in this thread is jarring. I’ve been an ES customer (self hosted, some cloud) for years and have only good things to say about them. Maybe I’m less a fan of the number of features they try to bake in and the direction of the company towards using logs for metrics (which causes heavy disk load instead of just storing metrics in time series) but. Yeah. I truly believe t…

So everyone who doesn't share your experience is a paid actor? Not on throwaway accounts?

No, I said “either these negative opinions are coming to the fore”- as in, I haven’t heard them before and they’re suddenly quite loud- which is entirely possible as people do not have a place to vent I guess.

Or people who have some form of vested interest in AWS succeeding (whether directly financial or indirectly benefiting from AWS being a monopoly) are influencing the discussion.

I was mostly thinking that in previous threads on this same subject these voices were not quite so loud.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#376

Post by lillecarl »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #31

I have mixed feelings about this server side license stuff that mongo db started. Imagine where the internet would be today if the creators of apache and mysql had tried to prevent shared hosting providers in the early days of the web from using their software

Yes, but would we have TimescaleDB, CockroachDB, ElasticSearch, Docker (containers at all) and projects like these if there wasn't any money at the table?

Not saying you're wrong, but it's a multidimensional problem. One could argue AWS is nothing like shared hosting providers(compare scale), and a webserver is essentially "stateless" which means easier to build than say... A database holding sensitive information that doesn't break. I assume this is why postgres HA and horizontal scaling still really isn't a thing, while CockroachDB funded by VC "solved" this problem.

I think it's fair to let companies monetize on the service they built, while allowing people to run it on their own if they can. A problem here though is that the companies incentives mismatch the opensource project they're eunning. CockroachDB enterprise having killer features that the opensource version doesn't have and that noone will be able to PR because the company will reject it.

TimescaleDB went ahead and opensourced all their features, aligning their incentives with the project, but I don't know of anyone else who has done this.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#377

Post by lillecarl »

brainless wrote: post #362
paxys wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more hosting providers today than in the era you are talking about. AWS has a "monopoly" simply because large companies are using it, and back in the day those companies would have run their own datacenters not used a shared PHP host. For a personal site or startup you have a thousand other options.

I think you need to get a reality check. I have worked as an early engineer to 12 or more startups in the last 15 years and am very active in communities ranging from HN, IndieHackers, OnDeck or a dozen others. I have not come across a single founder in the last 5-6 years who does not start with AWS credits or is not craving for them. AWS is nothing but monopoly and they have utilized access to their cash to buy earl…

Everything doesn't run on AWS. In Europe where a company might only sell to one country, like Sweden where I live for example many won't see the traffic required to scale beyond a single box, those same smaller companies might also not want to pay with their kidneys to host that one VM. Cloudflare is making this possible, so for smaller businesses and sites one could argue that Cloudflare is the real monopoly (entirely different markets).

Now companies like Shopify is enabling people to run a shop without any ops for peanuts.

Or smaller SMB it environments, we run a small datacenter at my company running VMware software to run our customers domain controllers, erps, fileservers and such, though this is decreasing, we used to run Exchange too, but migrated every customer to Office365 because it's cheaper than on-premise licensing, and we have 0 ops. The fact that we're local means we can offer dark fibre to many customer sites, giving them 0ms latency to us, making even the chattiest shit system run like things were on their premises. I guess we're "computing at edge" :p

Not saying you're wrong that AWS is a cloud monopoly, but everyone isn't purchasing in the cloud market (the majority of the worlds money doesn't flow through startups going global). And there's also Azure which is growing at an incredible rate challenging AWS at migrating legacy workloads to the cloud.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#379

Post by lillecarl »

darkwater wrote: post #148
paxys wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more hosting providers today than in the era you are talking about. AWS has a "monopoly" simply because large companies are using it, and back in the day those companies would have run their own datacenters not used a shared PHP host. For a personal site or startup you have a thousand other options.

I'm not even that sure this is true in absolute numbers, but I'm pretty sure it is not in relative figures. There are waaaay more customer/businesses on the Internet today than there were 15 years ago and not that many providers more.

Do you have a source for the data that there isn't significantly more hosting providers today? The ease of setting up Plesk or CPanel to become a shared hosting provider today is incredible, essentially 0 maintenance so I doubt your statement holds true, considering how many more people are on the Internet today compared to 15 years ago.
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