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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#371

Post by chiefalchemist »

dragonwriter wrote: post #299
chiefalchemist wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The student loan system created artificial demand. Demand increases price. Students get larger loans because it's easy. Demand continues. Prices rise more, and so on. Price will rise as much as the market can bear. Banks make out well. Higher edu makes out well. Politicians make out well. Students and often their parents lose. That said, students and parents have alternatives - e.g., two years of community college an…

> That said, students and parents have alternatives - e.g., two years of community college and then transfer for two more years where a degree would have more prestige Non-public prestige schools aren't particularly favorable to transfers generally or CC transfers particularly, finding a community college with programs in a given field that would support transfer to a prestige school is difficult, and CCs aren't real…

Fair enough. But it can be done. Because I've seen it done. Easy or not it can be done.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#372

Post by imtringued »

pisteoff wrote: post #267
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

> people are learning how to value educational degrees based on what they'll actually yield financially and making decisions accordingly. So why bother learning about the basis of human thought and culture when instead we should be learning about how to make the next iPhone app that won't matter in 6 months. Anything to maximize those profits, right? People be damned, it's the bottom line that matters! Got it. Only a…

>So why bother learning about the basis of human thought and culture when instead we should be learning about how to make the next iPhone app that won't matter in 6 months. Anything to maximize those profits, right? People be damned, it's the bottom line that matters! Got it.

Yes, the bottom line matters because it's paying for your education. If there is no bottom line you will have no education. Consider this, back in the day only the richest people send their children to colleges and universities. How did they become rich? By maximizing profits. So yes, profits come first, after you have those profits you can spend it on nonessential education.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#373

Post by imtringued »

keiferski wrote: post #168
fallingknife wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't the skills necessary for being good citizens be taught in HS like they were back when going to college was rare?

Because the world has grown more complex and more education is required. It isn’t 1955 anymore.

More education isn't needed. Specialized education tailoring to an individual's needs is what is lacking and somehow everyone decided college is that education, because companies refuse to fund training programs.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#374

Post by imtringued »

DC-3 wrote: post #11
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

That's entertainment and if you have to get a loan to fund your entertainment then you better plan on finding a way to pay that loan back. There is a reason why this form of entertainment was reserved for the rich, they could afford it.

Nowadays every single bloke demands free entertainment education without having to work for it.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#375

Post by imtringued »

worker767424 wrote: post #243
Miraste wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High school standards in the US have reached a point where I would not trust someone with only a high school diploma to be able to do data entry. Bachelor's degrees aren't a perfect credential but they're a passable filter, in lieu of building a much more extensive hiring process for low-level jobs.

Seriously. If you're working class or higher, you have to try to not get a high school diploma.

If highschool is really as terrible as you say and any random college is better then why not abolish most of it and let students take a reduced college workload at 16 years old? They would be able to finish college a year earlier. It's weird to have a dumbed down version of linear algebra and analysis in high school and then redo it in college.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#376

Post by imtringued »

agar wrote: post #219
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the knowledge is not required for the job, what is the degree for? Is it a concealed/outsourced IQ test? Is it a concealed illegal minimum age requirement? Isit collective insanity? I dare you to provide an explanation that is not illegal and/or deranged.

Flipping this around, put yourself in this situation: you have five open positions, and expect 300 applicants. You have approximately 1 hour per day to interview, and need to fill the positions in 10-15 business days. You would like to find people with the following characteristics: They can follow complex instructions with minimal oversight, they finish what they start, they have good social skills to work with coll…

Why are there 300 applicants? Why do employers have high standards for low skill jobs? It's because all these people failed to get an education that prepares them for a well paying job and now the employer is basically benefiting from their choice of education without having to fund it or pay a good wage.

As it is right now, being an average human in a developed country doesn't pay because there are lots of average humans in developing countries who are begging for work harder than you do.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#377

Post by imtringued »

fallingknife wrote: post #172
mrweasel wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about colleges in the US, so I have no reason to doubt you. It’s just a ready bleak observation for someone who is raised to pursue a career that would make me happy, and be lucky enough to live in a country that allows me to do that. More and more the Internet makes me feel that the US somehow lost the cold war and it’s now a dystopian nightmare.

99% of the people writing about how the US is a dystopian nightmare haven't lived in any other country.

I don't think it's a dystopian nightmare. I just think about how you guys got all those counter productive policies.

Guaranteed student loans in combination with private college simply doesn't work.

The way you zone your cities is causing widespread social problems.

Arresting people for doing drugs doesn't rehabilitate them.

It's not a dystopia, it's just lots of short sighted policies that cause long term failures.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#378

Post by imtringued »

Noos wrote: post #218
solosoyokaze wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To create workers for the industrial revolution.

no, we have formal education because not everyone is an autodidact and may need actual help in evaluating and learning skills. Many skills are not like computer programming. You're not learning physical therapy from coursera, or even something like human resources; some things you need others for to mentor, correct, guide, or provide facilities for.

No, he is right. Employers demand cookie cutter education and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if everyone gets their cookie cutter education, earns money and then pays for their kids liberal arts education. We are at a point where everyone gets access to college but not everyone can actually support themselves. This is why the first generation of students has to maximize economic gains above everything else. Once the economy is doing well your kids will be able to pursue their dreams, or you can just go back to college yourself.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#379

Post by imtringued »

wl wrote: post #62
DC-3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

I value education for its own sake. So I got my degree from a well regarded university in a lucrative field that I'm good at and enjoy. A roof over my head and money in my bank account, I can study anything I want without worrying about the financial yield. Sometimes that takes the form of free MOOCs. Sometimes that takes the form of paid classes taken through university extension programs. Unlike when I was taking c…

This is the way to go, go to university so you can earn money. Once money is no longer a problem, focus on all your other life goals. That could involve getting the education that you really want and as long as you can afford it that's perfectly acceptable.

However, many people are not in your situation. They have to work hard to get a good job and if they pick the wrong degree they will have to work even harder in the future. The education itself is not the problem, it's the unsustainable nature of getting a loan for a degree that does not empower you to pay the loan back.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#380

Post by imtringued »

jawzz wrote: post #31
DC-3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

Every reply to you is repeating the same thing and they’re all wrong. Woe on the next great sociologist, philosopher, or artist who gets discouraged from study because “just do CS so you can make money” or “just go to the library it’s literally the same thing as four years of training under experts in the field and discussion with other smart young people.”

The vast majority of people are not the next great sociologist, philosopher or artist. The idea that you create a super individual by ruining the lives of thousands of people is really destructive. Is that genius really productive enough to offset the productivity loss of thousands of people?
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