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MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

reuters.com

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Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#371

Post by ccheney »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #280
vbezhenar wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your view must be skewed by privilege of having stable currency. Currency of my country lost 250% of its value over last 7 years. It's not bitcoin-level volatile, but close to it. Thankfully I have an option to use USD to hoard money, but that option is not something that's given, in many countries you just can't exchange for fair price. I agree that for someone living in US or EU there's no much point using BTC.

It's sad that this aspect of the conversation so often gets replaced by everything else. This is (IMO) the most important point about digital currency - the promise of providing consumers in unstable economies the chance to convert to a more stable currency without government intrusion. We're still not there, but that should be the north star for crypto (again, in my opinion).

You're right, we're still not there yet. I love the idea of cryptocurrency but it's being treated more like a speculative investment vehicle than a currency for goods & services. Sure, you can buy some stuff with it but its volatility is generated through all of the speculators.

It needs to be stabilized if we're ever going to replace fiat currency.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#372

Post by whitepaint »

sktrdie wrote: post #306

Aliens: look at this species they've come up with this weird concept of "money". Some of them have more & can obtain more resources with it. Because they can't trust each other they need a book-keeping system that uses more resources than they needed in the first place! Quite ironic.

If you could provide a better solution, a Nobel Prize is waiting for you. It is truly extraordinary what people have achieved. Especially since around 18th century (wonder why..).

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#373

Post by halukakin »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #280
vbezhenar wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your view must be skewed by privilege of having stable currency. Currency of my country lost 250% of its value over last 7 years. It's not bitcoin-level volatile, but close to it. Thankfully I have an option to use USD to hoard money, but that option is not something that's given, in many countries you just can't exchange for fair price. I agree that for someone living in US or EU there's no much point using BTC.

It's sad that this aspect of the conversation so often gets replaced by everything else. This is (IMO) the most important point about digital currency - the promise of providing consumers in unstable economies the chance to convert to a more stable currency without government intrusion. We're still not there, but that should be the north star for crypto (again, in my opinion).

Say everyone in an unstable economy were paid in usd. If that country has foreign deficit, if that country has high government debt. What happens? How can the government keep paying its own employees? How does it pay retiree checks? How does it subsidize farming when needed? As long as a country cannot print usd itself, this is a fast shortcut to unemployment, hunger, etc...

Strong currencies are not the solution to poor governance. Good governance and democracy makes a country and its currency strong. Not vice versa.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#374

Post by ur-whale »

edgyquant wrote: post #278
panarky wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to own an asset with high volatility that gets more valuable over time than an asset with low volatility that gets less valuable over time.

We aren’t talking about assets and what you’ve just said is the reason we have controlled inflation. Currency isn’t supposed to incentivize hoarding it, quite the opposite in fact.

>we have controlled inflation

We do not have controlled inflation (I'm assuming you're talking about USistan). Please remember that the fed is an independent institution which refuses to get audited.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#375

Post by Shoue »

rank0 wrote: post #333
koonsolo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nano has 0 fees and 1< second transactions. What is your argument against that?

I've read briefly about nano and its super interesting. I don't really understand how its feasible though. What is the incentive for operating a node in the network? A cryptocurrency that would ACTUALLY be used as a currency needs a resilient network. But if operating a node yields no financial incentive, how is that network supposed to be created?

The incentive is the exact thing you're worried about: merchants get to avoid fees. If Nano ever takes off as a payment method, then you'd probably see e.g. large grocery chains operating Nano nodes to avoid fees.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#376

Post by golem14 »

skybrian wrote: post #352
liquidify wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They couldn't do that. If they didn't actually have any crypto, in the event of a large scale increase in price combined with a large scale cash out, Paypal would have to eat the difference from buy to sell price. They would lose their shirt. At minimum, Paypal is buying some percentage of the crypto sales in actual crypto to act as a hedge. However, it is more likely they are closer to 1 to 1 backing since they prob…

Or maybe even buy more Bitcoin than they need? It seems to have worked out well for Tesla so far. As Matt Levine pointed out yesterday, a mainstream company can make money by buying Bitcoin and then making an announcement that sounds like they're going to use it. (It doesn't matter whether that plan works out or not, as long as the price of Bitcoin goes up.) For Paypal, getting their own customers to buy Bitcoin (tha…

IMO Tesla tries to get around China currency controls and lets people in China buy Teslas with bitcoin. I guess that is part of the reason why Tesla was hauled in front of the Chinese government recently. It is a good idea if it works out.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#377

Post by FalconSensei »

sorbits wrote: post #360
krisdol wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

> And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes That is incorrect. On average it takes 10 minutes to mine a block, but you have to submit the transaction to be included in the block, so > 10 minutes before it appears on the blockchain. However, there are actually many block chains, as miners creates block in parallel, it’s the longest one that is the “official”, but the minute you see your transaction in a bl…

Awesome, go to the supermarket, pay with BTC and wait there for an hour for your transaction to complete.

Or try to buy anything time/quantity limited, so you don't get it because the transaction took too long to complete.

Meanwhile, in Canada, I just do a money transfer by email without any fees (if sending more than $10), and it's almost instant if the receiver have auto-deposit set up.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#378

Post by kelnos »

ur-whale wrote: post #374
edgyquant wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t talking about assets and what you’ve just said is the reason we have controlled inflation. Currency isn’t supposed to incentivize hoarding it, quite the opposite in fact.

>we have controlled inflation We do not have controlled inflation (I'm assuming you're talking about USistan). Please remember that the fed is an independent institution which refuses to get audited.

It absolutely is controlled[0], just perhaps not controlled in a way you would personally like.

(Also, I recommend you quit it with the "USistan" stuff. It comes off as childish and detracts from the point you're making.)

[0] Maybe "strongly influenced" is a better framing when talking about the Fed.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#379

Post by ForHackernews »

trhway wrote: post #307
ForHackernews wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What metric would you prefer?

my favorite is M3 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MABMM301USM189S Edit: I thought it was obvious, yet in response to comment below - theoretically to get real inflation one has to adjust the M3 for the growth of the total amount of "stuff" in the economy. As that growth is just 1-2%/year , the M3 shape is visually indistinguishable from the real inflation on any given time period of up to several years.

In response to your edit, I don't know how you can claim that "real" (according to who? you?) inflation is somehow divorced from the purchasing power of a dollar. What matters to most humans is how far their wages go at the shop.

Hand-waving at money supply and "total amount of stuff" without reference to prices makes as much sense as arguing "Well obviously daily commutes were shorter in 2019 than 1919 because cars are much faster than horses. Just look at my chart of relative top speeds!"

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#380

Post by xirbeosbwo1234 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #255
systemvoltage wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of an unstable, volatile, frantically manipulated currency that is susceptible to social media pump and dump schemes (Elon + Doge)? Currency and its exchange rate needs to be relatively stable for the world to put trust into it. Saying that BTC is stable, but the rest of the world's fiat currency is fluctuating makes no sense. US dollar provides stability and security, I feel confident that a cappucc…

Your view must be skewed by privilege of having stable currency. Currency of my country lost 250% of its value over last 7 years. It's not bitcoin-level volatile, but close to it. Thankfully I have an option to use USD to hoard money, but that option is not something that's given, in many countries you just can't exchange for fair price. I agree that for someone living in US or EU there's no much point using BTC.

Bitcoin, at least, absolutely does not solve this problem. Let's leave aside its volatility for now and assume it magically stays at exactly the same price. You are then left using a currency where each transaction costs several dollars and takes a half an hour, and that's the present state of affairs when no one is using it. So you would keep your cryptocurrency in a bank and transfer it through the normal channels, which opens it up to the same government controls you're concerned about. That's if you're allowed to hold cryptocurrency at all.

Hyperinflation is a problem of massive corruption and incompetence in government. It doesn't happen by accident in an otherwise stable society. If you're concerned about hyperinflation, you should assume the bank (or "exchange") will be subverted and transactions will be censored. Bitcoin was built to solve those problems, but does not scale and so cannot.

This is, by the way, the only situation where I'm at all sympathetic to cryptocurrencies. If someone can come up with a cryptocurrency that scales and that isn't controlled by cartels, I'll be glad that it can be used in unstable parts of the world.

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