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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#371

Post by themacguffinman »

username90 wrote: post #139
ur-whale wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition, in most places, govts have a monopoly on physical violence (i.e. : they have the most guns). So, to answer your question that starts with "What's to stop any government", the answer is : nothing.

Governments have mostly failed to stop websites. Moving from websites to appstore apps gives governments more power. It also gives giant corporations more power. So it is a bad development if you fear giant corporations or governments.

Governments have successfully stopped websites. The CCP has practically created their own internet, and it's obvious that the total absence of the Play Store in China hasn't changed this at all. Australia has enacted national bans on a number of piracy-related websites that their ISPs enforce. If anything, it's easier to circumvent a store ban by sideloading an APK than it is to find/setup reliable VPNs and various traffic obfuscation tools.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#372

Post by COGlory »

jmull wrote: post #135
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

The problem here lies with the Nazis - not IBM.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#373

Post by jpttsn »

unethical_ban wrote: post #270
jmull wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

>An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. Would they, though? How can you stop arbitrary APK downloads from the internet? Or a site that constantly changes its domain? Look at how blocking places like The Pirate Bay goes. I think there is more to be said for the impact of Apple and Google leaving the Pakistani market than you grant. Google is willing to leave the…

I’m missing something in this oft repeated argument. If non-App Store distribution is the solution, there’s Cydia (or whatever the kids these days use) right? And Android is “open”, isn’t it? Just like TPB, those should be hard to block. And if you want Apple to “sanction” this app distribution method, that gets you right back to the situation where Apple can be pressured by local governments.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#374

Post by matheusmoreira »

djrogers wrote: post #213
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

So american companies will compromise on their own freedom, an important american value and principle, for the sake of pursuing profit in foreign countries. They'd rather obey a foreign dictator than lose their business.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#375

Post by jpttsn »

stale2002 wrote: post #292
jmull wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so. I don't dispute that Apple and Google do gatekeeping. They do. We can discuss the pros and cons of it. But that is simply not issue here.

> The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so. In general, we do not see governments doing this, no. For example, I am sure that some people in Pakistan own intel/windows computers. But Pakistan is not making laws that require every single intel/windows computer to block certain content, at the hardware level of the PC. That is so…

It would be fun to watch someone calmly and rationally explain this impossibility to the legislator. Perhaps with slides about Turing’s universal machine and the x86 architecture. And while you have their ear, maybe convince them that end to end encryption can’t be safely backdoored, and that cellphone radios won’t crash planes. Legislators have so much respect and patience for technical arguments that limit their power.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#376

Post by Layke1123 »

tzs wrote: post #260
Layke1123 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not operate in those spaces?

Suppose I've got a search engine. It's the best there is for searches in politics, sports, health, education, shopping, entertainment, and nearly everything else. Country X passes a law that says search engines cannot return politics results. If I stay in country X and filter out politics then the people in country X end up with no politics search and the best search in the world in all the other categories. If I dec…

If no one operates in X, X feels pressure to either compete themselves with subpar service as you have said, or they lose out on revenue by opening up for free trade and no longer restricting access on search engines to politics.

If you are asking how best to help their population in general, there are a lot better things you could do to help their people out. At a minimum, you could start your own private search business that refuses to limit your searches and fill in a niche and make an even better search algorithm rather than dictate what you think a private business should be able to do with their platform.

If this were a public right or utility, then you have an argument maybe, but last time I checked, private businesses aren't in the business of serving a public right, only try to make a profit.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#377

Post by lrem »

mabbo wrote: post #280
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Google did exit the Chinese market though and its stock price has since under-performed the competitors that did not.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#378

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #354
zepto wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not against sanctions, so there is no comparison. If the US government includes technology restrictions as sanctions against Pakistan, I expect Apple would comply.

The point is that companies argued to continue doing business with South Africa because it would be a net benefit to those countries. It’s the same argument.

No it’s not remotely connected.

There is no international sanctions campaign aimed at forcing Pakistan to support freedom of religion.

There isn’t even any significant international response.

The argument is that in the absence of any international action against Pakistan that might actually cause change, it is better for the people to continue to have smartphones, access to Google search, etc.

If there was any international political movement for change in Pakistan, and Apple or Google were arguing against sanctions, then you would have a point.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#379

Post by passivate »

foolmeonce wrote: post #367
passivate wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Why would any government allow a business to operate if they don't respect local laws. Would the US allow that? On principle, I sort of reject this notion that a giant corporation(s) should be encouraged to meddle in the internal matters of other countries. I think these kinds of moves will be perceived very differently by the locals. The famous line "They will welcome us as liberators with open arms.…

Finance is the peaceful other means if you enforce laws on the people you can in order to keep it peaceful. US companies won't be running Uyghur reeducation camps in China even though that is lawful in China and may be their best way to source the right labor. Is everything happening anyway and with more cost by keeping a separation between US companies/nationals and crimes under US law? Sure. Is it still better? Mer…

For a US company to do business in another country, if they are unable to conduct business without breaking US law, then the answer is clear. They simply cannot do business without incorporating separately as a new entity in the foreign country. In the case of a national, they may have to change their citizenship if they wish to take up that job, etc. Yes, it totally sucks that the world cannot agree on certain basic principles, but I believe we must promote change peacefully without threats/force.

In any case, I think we're way off topic here, trying to solve the worlds problems in the comment section. The last word is yours :)

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#380

Post by Layke1123 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #342
Layke1123 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by the term "banning religious apps"? Specifically, what does the term religious app mean to you?

While I won't draw my exact lines, an annotated version of the Qur'an for your sect pretty clearly should be allowed.

What if someone made a bible that claimed Jesus was not the son of god, but just a man. I assume you would be ok with that?

What if someone makes a bible that says Jesus was engaged in a homosexual relationship with his disciples?

I'm curious if you can draw the lines on those or if that's harder to say "this is clearly allowed".

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