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Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

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Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#371
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Wireguard and Jason/zx2c4 are not a non-profit, nor do they advertise as one. Why are you making it sound like he is doing something nefarious? The argument for the ruling being bad is: the app links to the wireguard webpage (not within the app) which contains information on how to donate. That's like if in my app, I linked to my twitter profile, and my twitter profile contained a link to donate to me.…

If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations"…

> FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities

I mean, maybe in a technical sense? But the ones who publish these apps are usually just "non-profits run by single individuals who can't afford all the bureaucracy required to run a non-profit."

Keep in mind that FOSS apps like WireGuard are 1. entirely free, 2. with no ads, restrictions, or nags to donate. There's nothing you get from the app, or from the developer, by sending them a "monetary gift." Other than the fact that you can't claim it on your taxes, they're effectively working for a non-profit that produces this software.

If you consider someone offering a link to send them "monetary gifts" to pay their own salary to allow them to continue to work on an app they don't charge for, "a business" — I'd hate to see what you call a church, or a library, or PBS.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#372
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be mistaken, but I'm not seeing a connection between that and third party app support.

> On your Android phone, only app installations from verified stores, like the Google Play Store and your device manufacturer’s app store, are allowed.

To be fair, from a security standpoint if you want *the highest security* allowing third party installers is one of the first things I would disable as well.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is that Windows Subsystem for Linux has been amazing on Windows and just keeps getting better. I've also never noticed any difference in spinning up VMs. But anyway I get keeping with familiar tools but, I just disagree that MacOS is a better or even "sane" terminal platform. All the ancient GNU tools Mac ships and BSD-style "but Posix!" pedantry drives me up the wall.

In my personal experience, git crashes about 1 in 3 commands I run on windows. Haskell takes ~10 times longer to compile on a ~4 year old desktop windows machine than a ~6 year old mac laptop. And I usually spend hours trying to get simple tools installed, vs. minutes on macs.

Are you using windows git, or linux git inside WSL? The latter seems a lot more reliable in my experience.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#375
post #371
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations"…

> FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities I mean, maybe in a technical sense? But the ones who publish these apps are usually just "non-profits run by single individuals who can't afford all the bureaucracy required to run a non-profit." Keep in mind that FOSS apps like WireGuard are 1. entirely free, 2. with no ads, restrictions, or nags to donate. There's nothing you get from the app, or from the develo…

PBS (and BBC in the UK, and other equivalents) enjoys extra privileges to accept tax-free funding in exchange for the mandate or promise to stay non-commercial and not give priority to specific donors' requests. [0] Libraries, should they accept donations to operate (or public funding!), accept some restrictions as well. There are commercial libraries as well, incidentally, which don't get to accept donations, but are funded by some associated commercial business - my local bookstore had one before the current pandemic has started, though it is unknown if they will continue to have one by the time it ends.

Churches are "complicated" - and less said about the funding the better, especially in context of the US. Suffice to say I very much prefer the German model - which happens to come with quite stringent accountability requirements.

I have no problem sending money in appreciation for the work with no expectation of any return on it (not even a tax deduction). I do not have a problem with someone making a profit on those "gifts" - I wish them all the best, in fact. I do, however, firmly believe that you can't have your cake and eat it too: you receive the ability to accept donations in a way where you enjoy various exemptions (in this context, from Apple/Google delisting you or taking their cut) in exchange for actually going through that bureaucratic rigmarole to get registered. It's not a $DEITY-given FOSS right.

Side note - as I wrote before, my local tax office would like to know who the money is going to, to either try to get their pound of flesh (cynical and realistic view) or to identify the money going to 'bad actors' (take your usual terrorists/criminals/think of the children BS excuse the politicians always make up to pass the relevant law), doubly so when the money is sent internationally - if I wanted to actually send an one-off gift to Jason/zx2c4, I can only assume he is not in my country.

[0] https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/funding-standards/

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seemed unlikely since S10 is maybe the most mainstream flagship phone but it appears that Samsung does indeed make it painful to take control of your device: https://topjohnwu.github.io/Magisk/install.html#samsung-syst... Many manufactures make it easy to unlock and root your device (shout-out oneplus), but many others do try to make you brick it if you try doing anything out of the ordinary. Like the HMD rebran…

Oneplus requires you to wipe your phone to root it. Add to this that there is no way to backup the phone without rooting it.

You can get the same backups you would have if you never rooted it to start with. I agree in some cases that's not enough but it's not no backups of any sort. Mostly just more hassle to restore.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seemed unlikely since S10 is maybe the most mainstream flagship phone but it appears that Samsung does indeed make it painful to take control of your device: https://topjohnwu.github.io/Magisk/install.html#samsung-syst... Many manufactures make it easy to unlock and root your device (shout-out oneplus), but many others do try to make you brick it if you try doing anything out of the ordinary. Like the HMD rebran…

Oneplus requires you to wipe your phone to root it. Add to this that there is no way to backup the phone without rooting it.

Of course, everyone requires a wipe. That's to protect normies' data when they inevitably get their stuff stolen on a trip to Paris. Easy to live with, just root it first thing after unboxing.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your bank decides that your business is worth less to them than a compliance checkmark, that's on them. All my phones are rooted and it has never been an issue with any banking app I use. It's all about priorities. For some people, that's going to be the roman numeral name suffix dropdown in the registration form. For me it's the bank not telling me what I can do with my devices.

It is not just what the bank wants and pushes on its clients, because f them. At least in EU, they are pushed into it by PSD2 ("Payment Services Directive 2"). Even if you are happy with accessing the bank via browser on the computer, you are going to need the second factor for auth, and SMS isn't going to be it. Because it is pushed centrally, banks do not have a choice. Hence, you as a customer, won't have a choice…

Moving away from SMS is good. SMS is cleartext, equipment to fake a number and get their messages is maybe hundreds of dollars at this point.

Encrypted push notifications are much better.

PSD2 lets you do basically whatever you want. Fingerprint is enough, or confirm in phone app if making a transfer from a desktop banking UI.

U2F would be nice but with banks being banks that's not going to happen this decade.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#379
post #375
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities I mean, maybe in a technical sense? But the ones who publish these apps are usually just "non-profits run by single individuals who can't afford all the bureaucracy required to run a non-profit." Keep in mind that FOSS apps like WireGuard are 1. entirely free, 2. with no ads, restrictions, or nags to donate. There's nothing you get from the app, or from the develo…

PBS (and BBC in the UK, and other equivalents) enjoys extra privileges to accept tax-free funding in exchange for the mandate or promise to stay non-commercial and not give priority to specific donors' requests. [0] Libraries, should they accept donations to operate (or public funding!), accept some restrictions as well. There are commercial libraries as well, incidentally, which don't get to accept donations, but ar…

> I do not have a problem with someone making a profit on those "gifts"

You seem to be assuming, though, that "not being a registered nonprofit" automatically implies that there's some non-trivial probability that you'll be profitable.

Every FOSS developer I've met who is accepting "tips" for their work, is not anywhere close to "breaking even" from those tips (insofar as you'd treat the FOSS project as its own business with its own balance sheet, rather than as a marque of the owner's hypothetical individual-proprietorship IT consultancy.)

Sure, some of these are side-projects they do in addition to a full-time job, and therefore the self-employment-wages they get paid out for this effort are "pure profit" in the sense that they already make a living wage. But that would be just as true if they worked full-time for a business, and then worked as a part-time paid employee of a nonprofit.

Profitability of a FOSS-project-as-corporation, is what's left over after you pay yourself (the sole employee) out at a working wage for all the labor you put in. As such, in legal terms, these side-projects almost always would qualify as non-profits.

FOSS developers aren't YouTubers with a fanbase of millions and a platform where they can directly, incessantly plug their Patreon to that captive audience with embedded advertising. They're just people publishing apps, where the app almost never event hints at the "personal brand" of the developer.

And so, I think a critical difficulty in the communication here, is that you might be imagining this thing on the wrong scale. We're talking about maybe 200 people per year, sending the developer maybe $5 apiece. Not about individual transfers of hundreds/thousands of dollars; nor about enough transfers to pay a living wage. That's why it makes sense to call these monetary transfers "tips", rather than "funding."

And that's also, partly, why people are so confused/appalled — Apple and Google do not serve their own bottom lines by getting in the way of people "donating" to these FOSS projects. The labor-cost required to enforce this directive probably costs more than they'd ever make by taking a cut of these tips!

> in exchange for actually going through that bureaucratic rigmarole to get registered

It's not the "rigmarole" (labor), it's the cost. A nonprofit corporation is still a corporation — and most FOSS developers, as individual proprietors, don't receive enough in tips to actually be able to afford the fees involved in incorporating and registering a nonprofit.

(I mean, they can probably afford it themselves. But the hypothetical nonprofit that is the FOSS project can't afford to pay for it out of its own treasury. I.e., incorporation would just put the FOSS project further "in the hole" in being revenue-negative, and therefore in being worth the developer's time to contribute to.)

There's a reason that governments allow individual proprietors to just "do business" without incorporating: it's a fiscal stumbling-block that trips up the people governments most want to encourage to start businesses.

The same thing should be true for nonprofits/charities, intuitively. Even if there is no legal recognition for "individual proprietorship nonprofits", everyone acts like those are a thing. (They don't expect their donations to be tax-deductible, but most people in the middle class don't donate to formal nonprofits enough to realize "donations" are their own, tax-deductible, class of thing, separate from regular monetary gifts.)

And most of all, people expects corporations to go along with it — and most corporations do go along with it. Microsoft with Github Sponsors, etc. That's why everyone is so up-in-arms that Apple and Google aren't going along with it.

Of course, Apple and Google are technically, legally in the right — these are not donations. The problem is that common sense disagrees with the law: by common sense, these should be donations, tax-deductibility and all. If push came to shove, the law — not common sense — would be what bends. But nobody's pushed that far yet.

> Side note - as I wrote before, my local tax office would like to know who the money is going to

Is there some problem I'm not seeing, tax-wise, with sending small monetary gifts to people you believe to be individuals who are online acquaintances of yours (e.g. people you talked to on a forum once)?

If I want to send money to a FOSS developer, it's because I view them as, effectively, an acquaintance. Someone I'd buy a beer at a conference. By "donating" to them, I'm just buying this acquaintance of mine a beer asynchronously.

Most people make small monetary transfers to individuals they aren't sure of the identity of all the time. For example, buying hand-made jewelry at a pop-up street bazaar. There's no "business" name — it's just an individual proprietor — and you might never learn the proprietor's name, either!

Because there are so many situations like this that can arise in every-day life, it's never the job of private citizens to prevent money from being unknowingly laundered into the hands of trade-embargoed states or entities. It's not your legal civic responsibility to avoid shopping at a store just because you haven't ruled it out as being a money-laundering operation.

Instead, it's the legal duty of banks and payment processors — with their fancy KYC/AML databases — to do that: to identify the transfer recipient through network-analysis at point of fan-in. Money launderers aren't fought by starving them of demand; they're fought by deplatforming them from the financial system they depend on.

(That being said, if you were acting as your own payment processor, ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala, you might be on the hook at tax time.)

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#380
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Jason’s response and think it carries the right tone and is delivered near flawlessly. It’s clearly frustrating to deal with Apple’s platform lockdown, and he captures such in a professional and rational manner. Bravo. What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile tow…

> What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users. So blame Apple for it - why do you blame the developers? Apple wants you to forget that it is the developers that add value to a platform, and yet it charges them for the "privilege" of creating apps for th…

My condensed point is that it would be both a lot more clear to users and a more powerful middle finger to Apple if projects just dropped support for macOS.

Apple isn’t feeling the heat for the dumb decisions they make with their platform, users are because they get berated as idiots for ever owning an Apple device by frustrated maintainers.

I mean I’ve seen things like “the problem is not the $99 developer fee, it’s paying it to Apple”. If that’s how you feel then my offer to cover the fee so your project can publish notarized releases isn't going to go anywhere and your project wont ever properly support macOS. Sorry.

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