Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 415 posts

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#371

Post by sequoia »

dougmwne wrote: post #289
sequoia wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: wow. So 1.3 million avoidable deaths worldwide (or 250k in the US if you're there) is an acceptable loss to you, but staying home for the holidays is unacceptable? Your lack of empathy for your fellow humans is staggering. A day may come when tragedy strikes your family, I hope you are shown more empathy than you are choosing to extend to others here.

I think it is good to have compassion for other people's frustration. Everyone has made sacrifices this year. I don't think any person's experience should be dismissed. The best way to inspire compassion in others is with your own compassion.

You are speaking truth, you're right I am getting hot under the collar in this discussion and it's not helpful.

To be pedantic, I would disagree that "everyone has made sacrifices" this year. To make a sacrifice implies giving up something one wants voluntarily. If I rob you that's not a sacrifice, you had no choice.

There are clearly a ton of people who are unwilling to "voluntarily give up" anything, and they've given things up only when forced to, i.e. by restaurant or school closures. There are many more who make vague gestures towards responsible behavior but refuse to do anything that would incur any actual inconvenience.

I wish it were true that everyone has made sacrifices, but I'm afraid we haven't achieved that level of civic responsibility, not by a mile.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#372

Post by wins32767 »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #368
wins32767 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope some enterprising lawyer starts filing wrongful death civil suits for people who do not follow mask and gathering rules. With sequencing of the virus, plus some contact tracing it should be possible to make a preponderance of evidence case for a subset of deaths. That should hopefully provide a stick to get a large number of defectors (in game theory terms) to stop defecting. A political solution would clearly…

The extreme level of litigiousness and authoritarianism you're advocating is perhaps the worst, inhumane impulse that surfaces during a crisis like this. Imagine, for instance, that we started tracing HIV strains and jailing gay people. And then arguing that having sex isn't really necessary and abstinence is the only way to prevent transmission. The implications of what you're saying is appalling.

I hardly think making people face the consequences of their actions is authoritarian, nor is it worse than the callous disregard for other people's lives that many are demonstrating through their actions. People who refuse to take basic precautions are externalizing the costs of their decisions onto the rest of society. Litigation is one way society deals with that problem.

If someone went around having unprotected sex without telling their partners, then I don't see a problem with a civil suit from anyone they infected to make them pay for the damages they inflicted.

If I were to distort your view like you did mine, I'd say that you're arguing for the ability to go around punching anyone else in the face because to prevent you from doing so would be starting down a slippery slope that would lead to authoritarianism.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#373

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

wins32767 wrote: post #372
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extreme level of litigiousness and authoritarianism you're advocating is perhaps the worst, inhumane impulse that surfaces during a crisis like this. Imagine, for instance, that we started tracing HIV strains and jailing gay people. And then arguing that having sex isn't really necessary and abstinence is the only way to prevent transmission. The implications of what you're saying is appalling.

I hardly think making people face the consequences of their actions is authoritarian, nor is it worse than the callous disregard for other people's lives that many are demonstrating through their actions. People who refuse to take basic precautions are externalizing the costs of their decisions onto the rest of society. Litigation is one way society deals with that problem. If someone went around having unprotected s…

> I hardly think making people face the consequences of their actions is authoritarian

"you must face the consequences" is perhaps the most authoritarian thing you could say when arguing in favor of severe penalties.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#374

Post by wins32767 »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #370

Have we learned nothing from the AIDS crisis? It's clear to most people, in that instance, that an ugly side of human thinking emerges around viral outbreaks and it presents itself in how we consider other human beings. People so readily stigmatize and it's very clearly on display in this thread. No human being without ill-intent can be blamed for a virus. Tragedy befalls humanity from time to time, this is certain;…

Tragedy does befall humanity from time to time, but you're arguing for comforting those who make selfish choices that make things worse for everyone. This is not like the AIDS crisis; the medical system was not at risk of collapsing.

What of empathy for those who have and will needlessly die alone in tents and hospital hallways and their grieving families who don't get to say goodbye? What of empathy for the medical staff who are working 12, 24, or 36 hour shifts with no end in sight? What of empathy for those who stock our shelves who are constantly put at risk? What empathy for an entire generation of children who will have worse educational attainment because they're forced to do a year or more of remote school?

But sure, let's empathize with someone who keeps eating out and refuses to wear a mask. It's not like they could have done anything to mitigate the tragedy that's going on, right?

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#375

Post by dougmwne »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #366
dougmwne wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a valid concern. A bad economy kills. The so-called diseases of despair[1] kill more than 150k a year in the US. And much suffering is caused by limited opportunities and limited hope. These limited prospects can and have have taken down many governments in the past. And regime change is rarely a bloodless process. There are no perfect solutions when it comes to governance. We must do our best to promot…

Let's be honest with ourselves. The real reason many are worried about the economy is because of their rich lifestyles and stock portfolios. If they cared about "diseases of despair" they wouldn't continue to support paltry minimum wages, lack of social safety net, no universal medicine, constant tax breaks at the expense of the budget, etc. They didn't care about "diseases of despair" in 2008 either. It's simply a b…

I am not them. The real reason I am worried about the economy is so that it can provide as good as a life to as many people as possible. I am not arguing in bad faith, and I do not want any of the things you list. I know our society has problems distributing wealth and I will always support distributing it more fairly. We need to have an economy for there to be anything to distribute. I do care and I am not your strawman.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#376

Post by wins32767 »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #373
wins32767 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hardly think making people face the consequences of their actions is authoritarian, nor is it worse than the callous disregard for other people's lives that many are demonstrating through their actions. People who refuse to take basic precautions are externalizing the costs of their decisions onto the rest of society. Litigation is one way society deals with that problem. If someone went around having unprotected s…

> I hardly think making people face the consequences of their actions is authoritarian "you must face the consequences" is perhaps the most authoritarian thing you could say when arguing in favor of severe penalties.

Severe penalties like a civil lawsuit? I guess doctors who accidentally kill their patients are living an authoritarian dystopia.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#377

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

wins32767 wrote: post #374
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #370

Have we learned nothing from the AIDS crisis? It's clear to most people, in that instance, that an ugly side of human thinking emerges around viral outbreaks and it presents itself in how we consider other human beings. People so readily stigmatize and it's very clearly on display in this thread. No human being without ill-intent can be blamed for a virus. Tragedy befalls humanity from time to time, this is certain;…

Tragedy does befall humanity from time to time, but you're arguing for comforting those who make selfish choices that make things worse for everyone. This is not like the AIDS crisis; the medical system was not at risk of collapsing. What of empathy for those who have and will needlessly die alone in tents and hospital hallways and their grieving families who don't get to say goodbye? What of empathy for the medical…

> This is not like the AIDS crisis; the medical system was not at risk of collapsing.

Neither is it now? Even at the peak in NYC, the Javits center was never filled, nor the hospital ships. Likewise in the UK the nightingale hospitals were never used.

Should we be wary at all of our propensity for stigmatizing people with disease(especially a viral one)?

Should we berate anyone who gets HIV when they could have worn a condom?

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#378

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

__al__ wrote: post #112
goalieca wrote: post #54

There are “high-risk” people in care homes who want to visit their relatives for the holidays. To call these people selfish is way off the mark. Human beings are more than a simple statistic to optimize for political benefit. Perhaps it’s the politicians and others who are being selfish by imposing their will and desires. Viewpoints on liberty and consent aside, there doesn’t seem to be much of a strategy or timeline…

Couldn't agree more. You're asking 330 million Americans to give up some of their freedoms without any real plan or timeline; of course there is going to opposition.

Thanks for expressing this, I think most people are scared into silence by the self-righteous scolds among us.

But clearly - even globally - more than enough people are aware that some people will absolutely destroy any semblance of normal life, and irreparably damage the fabric of society in a frenzy of fear and panic, waving the banner of science, without acknowledging any of the complex decisions around risks, costs, etc.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#379

Post by wins32767 »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #377
wins32767 wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tragedy does befall humanity from time to time, but you're arguing for comforting those who make selfish choices that make things worse for everyone. This is not like the AIDS crisis; the medical system was not at risk of collapsing. What of empathy for those who have and will needlessly die alone in tents and hospital hallways and their grieving families who don't get to say goodbye? What of empathy for the medical…

> This is not like the AIDS crisis; the medical system was not at risk of collapsing. Neither is it now? Even at the peak in NYC, the Javits center was never filled, nor the hospital ships. Likewise in the UK the nightingale hospitals were never used. Should we be wary at all of our propensity for stigmatizing people with disease(especially a viral one)? Should we berate anyone who gets HIV when they could have worn…

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/11/third-sur...

> The entire state of Iowa is now out of staffed beds, Eli Perencevich, an infectious-disease doctor at the University of Iowa, told me. Worse is coming. Iowa is accumulating more than 3,600 confirmed cases every day; relative to its population, that’s more than twice the rate Arizona experienced during its summer peak, “when their system was near collapse,” Perencevich said. With only lax policies in place, those cases will continue to rise. Hospitalizations lag behind cases by about two weeks; by Thanksgiving, today’s soaring cases will be overwhelming hospitals that already cannot cope. “The wave hasn’t even crashed down on us yet,” Perencevich said. “It keeps rising and rising, and we’re all running on fear. The health-care system in Iowa is going to collapse, no question.”

Most of the US is likely to have their medical systems collapse this winter. That will lead to thousands of preventable deaths.

Stigmatizing people with HIV was bad because it was a proxy for stigmatizing gay men. Stigmatizing people who don't wear masks is stigmatizing anti-social behavior.

Re: Super-spreading wedding demonstrates Covid-19 risk posed by holiday gatherings

#380

Post by nradov »

greggman3 wrote: post #155

First off let me make it clear (1) I've mostly stayed entirely isolate since March. (2) I plan to stay isolated. So don't shoot the messenger please. Anyway, I live in Tokyo. Tokyo Metro area has basically all of California (SF, SD, etc..) squeezed into an area the size of Los Angeles. 34 million people. Tokyo has been mostly unlocked since June. Theaters and other venues are open (every other seat), clubs are open (…

A recent serology study of a large number of Japanese subjects found that about 46% had antibodies to SARS-CoV-2. The infection fatality rate in Japan appears to be very low despite a large number of infections.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20198796v...

Post reply on HN