The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini • Hacker News Board

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#371

Post by paulryanrogers » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 3:53 AM UTC

samatman wrote: post #316

acomjean wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda don't have a problem with the omissions, but the "marketing spin" seems a little over the top. How standard are these usb-c bricks and are people going to be worried about cooking their phones? (Apple's chargers are of pretty high quality, but it seems weird to plug a phone into a usb c device that can charge a notebook). Also I feel that the headphone ommission to save the environment would be more believabl…

Here's how I see it: the phone industry is in a bad Nash equilibrium. Chargers should be sold separately, they tend to last longer than a phone, cheap ones are dangerous, and people buy phones, the chargers just come with because everyone sells phones with chargers. Apple is big enough to shift out of that equilibrium, by pulling the good-ol' reality distortion field and encouraging everyone else to stop bundling cha…

Apple is also big enough to include user replaceable batteries. So patting oneself on the back in that case may come across as hypocrisy.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#372

Post by babesh » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 3:56 AM UTC

babesh wrote: post #370

dkonofalski wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the whole point. You'll buy one at that point because you need it. Giving people the brick whether they need it or not is what makes it wasteful and costly for all involved.

The point is that you will most likely immediately need it. Example, I charge my phone bedside. Now I need to either buy a brick or if I do what Apple wants me to do which is to buy the MagSafe charger. This incentivizes people to buy yet another Apple accessory. That and margins are the real purpose. One more foot into the Apple ecosystem.

It’s the same with the now missing headphones. Now you are incentivized to buy AirPods.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#373

Post by musicale » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 4:16 AM UTC

vlan0 wrote: post #367

gumby wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports. Actually Apple is pretty standards compliant, sometimes excessively so. I have no illusion that they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the idea that they "don't use standards" is a canard. For video they long used open standards (DVI, Displayport, HDMI, now standard DisplayPort over Type C); they were one of the first to…

I think you may have overlooked the other side of those cables in your examples. While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety. And that was true for over a decade worth of iPods, iPhones, and iPads.

> While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety

The original iPod was FireWire-only. The 30-pin dock connector was developed to enable USB and FireWire connectivity as well as docking.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#374

Post by donavanm » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 4:34 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #340

soperj wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.

> Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports. Actually Apple is pretty standards compliant, sometimes excessively so. I have no illusion that they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the idea that they "don't use standards" is a canard. For video they long used open standards (DVI, Displayport, HDMI, now standard DisplayPort over Type C); they were one of the first to…

A quick note, the iPhone 8 and later are all Qi compatible at 7W. I guess their new proprietary charger will be 15W. Supposition is that the watch and ipad dont support wireless charging due to space/heat. Still a pretty reasonable story. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208078

On the other side the 30pin device connectors and the active thunderbolt 2 cables are pretty crap and play in to the proprietary and expensive meme.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#375

Post by tmd83 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #174

saagarjha wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pulled it from all their other iPhones and kept the price the same. I think it's pretty clear it's profit for Apple.

Fair point. They do have a significantly upgraded radio, however. I don't remember what happened to pricing when they went from 2G to 3G or 3G to 4G/LTE, but I would not have been surprised if pricing had gone up with the 5G upgrade (in a normal economy). That said, the AT&T/Verizon giveaway/deception is absolute garbage.

I don't have a problem with them increasing price. We don't know the cost of the changes in this version and even more so users are not entitled that Apple keep the same profit margin even if the cost is the same.

The deception though is claiming that new new phone has all these new goodies with the same price. This is effectively all these new goodies with $50 increase in price ($30 career, $20 charger).

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#376

Post by ksec » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:07 AM UTC

You know, for those of use not from US. This is pretty much the norm since Day 1. So I find it surprising it is the those from America that complains. ( That is not to say Apple is without its flaws here )

Before iPhone was available Sim-Free and Worldwide. Apple had always been using the same marketing. iPhone starts at $199 with AT&T. The same headline without AT&T get printed all around the Internet and during the iPhone 4 era, even on local news and paper press.

And all these price are without Tax, which is something new to those from EU of other part of the world, where everything included in the consumer pricing. So by the time Apple started publishing its Sim Free Price, most around the world are complaining ( and God Damn it they still do today ) the US price and EU / AUS / CA / UK price dont make sense.

So this really isn't anything new.

Then there is mmWave, which is only available in the US iPhone.

Judging from the Pricing around the world, it seems Apple really did price iPhone 12 at $799. The extra $30 seems to be trying to recoup the mmWave margin specifically for US. And personally I would much rather pay $30 more for mmWave so I could play around with it down the road when it is available than to upgrade my Phone again.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#377

Post by ksec » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:11 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #280

jacurtis wrote: post #122

Let's also not forget that Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet. Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. I am not suggesting that removing the power brick doesn't have any impact on the environment. What I am suggesting is that I don't buy for a second that it was the primary motivator for remov…

There is another aspect to this people might be missing: If every phone that is shipped must come with a charger, but half the chargers are never used, then the marginal value gained by customers from the manufacturer improving that product is also halved. So why bother making the charger good? Half the people won't use it! They'd have to pay for something that's not a direct benefit to the product they do want to bu…

>They use very advanced technology such as gallium nitride circuitry to miniaturise their chargers.

Source for that?

As far as I am aware GaN has yet made it into any of the Apple Chargers. ( And I really I am wrong on that )

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#378

Post by ksec » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

stetrain wrote: post #145

jacurtis wrote: post #122

Let's also not forget that Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet. Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. I am not suggesting that removing the power brick doesn't have any impact on the environment. What I am suggesting is that I don't buy for a second that it was the primary motivator for remov…

"decided to not pass that savings onto the customer" Do you have access to the BOM? Sure it was likely a cost-savings measure, but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. It's a two-sided equation and we can't see the whole thing. If Apple did want to be environmentally friendly though I would think offering a reasonably priced multi-device (4-ports?) charger would be more effective than just selling a si…

>but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere.

1. Qualcomm Modem is at least $8 more expensive than Intel according to last court filling. And generally inline with industry expectation of its BOM Cost. Those numbers were for 4G Modem. And I would expect 5G Modem to be even more expensive.

2. mmWave isn't Free. I am very surprised Apple put mmWave inside iPhone 12 as well.

The problem with Multi Port Charger is that it is very Un-Apple. What happens when you charge a MacBook and iPad Pro at the same time? You now either expect customers to add up their Wattage to see if your chargers fits or design a multiple port charger to include this scenario, and if you include Apple's normal accessories margin that Charger is going to be insanely expensive.

So it is better to leave it to third party to do it. Apple will just recommend you to use their own charger.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#379

Post by samatman » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:31 AM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #371

samatman wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's how I see it: the phone industry is in a bad Nash equilibrium. Chargers should be sold separately, they tend to last longer than a phone, cheap ones are dangerous, and people buy phones, the chargers just come with because everyone sells phones with chargers. Apple is big enough to shift out of that equilibrium, by pulling the good-ol' reality distortion field and encouraging everyone else to stop bundling cha…

Apple is also big enough to include user replaceable batteries. So patting oneself on the back in that case may come across as hypocrisy.

...did you intend to post this under my comment?

I can't for the life of me see the relevance. Sealed phones aren't an industry Nash equilibrium, they're a good design that users and manufacturers both prefer.

There are also no ecological grounds whatsoever to prefer user-replaceable batteries. The fact that it requires a few professional tools and some patience is irrelevant: when the battery stops holding a charge, it can be replaced, and this happens routinely.

Re: The real prices of the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini

#380

Post by ksec » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #341

jacurtis wrote: post #122

Let's also not forget that Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet. Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. I am not suggesting that removing the power brick doesn't have any impact on the environment. What I am suggesting is that I don't buy for a second that it was the primary motivator for remov…

> And all those tangible cost savings thanks to the removal of this accessory... not only have those savings not been passed onto the consumer, but they actually increased the price! With all due respect, this isn’t insightful; it’s asinine. The iPhone 12 is a completely new device, yet you’re acting like they took the existing product, removed a piece from the box, and jacked up the price. When planning this new dev…

>70% more devices per pallet (if I remember the figures correctly) is no joke!

I think that was the figure they used and it was more of a spin. ( Unless Flight has changed in recent years ) They were already flying at max load before the packaging got smaller. I did a calculation on HN some months ago and expect may be 30% increase in shipment unit due to weight saving from box, charger and earpiece.

Pretty Decent, but not 70% as they did like you to think.