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Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

newyorker.com

371–380 of 584 posts

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#371
post #55

Sigh. I think this article is holding Scott, and a core constituency of posters and meet up people, guilty by association with every rando on the internet, and also about half of the celebrities in the Bay area. "War against the media" strikes me as ridiculous hyperbole in this context. I have met some of these people in real life, and none of them expressed that attitude to me, nor any kind of utopian superiority. I…

The "War against the media" is outlined towards the end of the article. When Bay area "thought-leaders" are calling for the blacklisting of reporters and replacing traditional media as a whole, "war" doesn't sound like hyperbole to me.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#372

I've been reading the NewYorker for decades. And this article makes me realize 100M Spotify is paying for Joe Rogan podcast is actually a bargain. Old media is done, they do not have a business valuable outside of adds driven model, all they can fight for is the power to develop narrative(s). In other words, they are fighting for status

Can you elaborate on why this article drives you to think that? As someone with no stake in the issue (aware of LessWrong but not much else) I found it very interesting and well written and it made me want to immerse myself more in the rationalist community which I found appealing. There was definitely an angle to this piece, like any piece, but I found it only slightly unbalanced. The unbalance was situated at the j…

The problems with the article that I perceive:

1. It makes claims about the SSC readership and the rationalist community intended to invoke an emotional response with little verifiable evidence.

> This plea conformed with the online persona he has publicly cultivated over the years—that of a gentle headmaster preparing to chaperone a rambunctious group of boys on a museum outing

2. It's overly general in how it addresses people involved; it tends to conflate very different people connected by little more than their professed belief in using evidence to make decisions and examining their preconceptions. Using a rationalist psychologist as representative of "Silicon Valley" is evidence of this point.

I may be influenced by the fact the fact that I have a good friend who is an avowed rationalist and I don't believe the broad strokes generalizations in the article represented him.

Also, it fails to grasp what I perceive as the main reason for Alexander's blog takedown, which I think is merely a game theory influenced attempt to prevent the NYT from printing his name, rather than anything more grand.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#373
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your last name? I think an extremely small fraction of the accounts here would want to tell people their full real life names.

My last name is easy to find. My first name is Kurt, I live in Chicago, I work on startups. I've published with my last name within the last decade. Scott Alexander's last name is also easy to find. His first name is Scott, his middle name is Alexander, he's a psychiatrist, and he lives in Michigan. This is all information he publicized. And he has also published under his last name, even on SSC, within the last deca…

It's not easy to find, and I know, because I have tried to find it multiple times, and I haven't found it, and I'm quite google-savvy. I don't doubt that I could find it if I put in enough time, or if I was lucky to try the "right" method on the first try. It's probably also significantly easier to find it now that there is a bunch of chatter about it.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#374
post #55

Sigh. I think this article is holding Scott, and a core constituency of posters and meet up people, guilty by association with every rando on the internet, and also about half of the celebrities in the Bay area. "War against the media" strikes me as ridiculous hyperbole in this context. I have met some of these people in real life, and none of them expressed that attitude to me, nor any kind of utopian superiority. I…

The "War against the media" is outlined towards the end of the article. When Bay area "thought-leaders" are calling for the blacklisting of reporters and replacing traditional media as a whole, "war" doesn't sound like hyperbole to me.

AIUI, they're calling for individual non-cooperation with unethical reporters. There may be a broader "war" between SV and elite media, but it's not clear that the SSC affair has much to do with it beyond possibly being a case of elite media behaving unethically, and (quite uniquely, all things considered) being held accountable for that.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#375
post #369
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me quote perhaps the most important part of the essay and the part that I believe truly defines this ethos. -- begin quote When I was young and stupid, I used to believe that transgender was really, really dumb. That they were looking for attention or making it up or something along those lines. Luckily, since I was a classical liberal, my reaction to this mistake was – to not bother them, and to get very very an…

Yes. I was aware of my characterization and the word peackocking (to make a vainglorious display; strut like a peacock) was used before it was co-opted by PUA community ( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/peacocking ). Let's rewrite that paragraph and use fewer emotionally charged words. -- As a younger person I thought transgenderism was about seeking attention. But being trained in the liberal arts I decided to que…

That rewrite completely loses the point though.

The point is not "accepting people different than me", it's "having suitable principles to still fight in favour of people I might otherwise rightly or wrongly dislike".

You completely removed the part where he not only didn't act antagonistically towards them but actively opposed other people doing so as well.

And that part was the single most important part, and the principle he was arguing in favour of.

If you think your rewrite was the same exact content, then I'm afraid I don't think you understood what he was saying at all.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#376
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last name is easy to find. My first name is Kurt, I live in Chicago, I work on startups. I've published with my last name within the last decade. Scott Alexander's last name is also easy to find. His first name is Scott, his middle name is Alexander, he's a psychiatrist, and he lives in Michigan. This is all information he publicized. And he has also published under his last name, even on SSC, within the last deca…

It's not easy to find, and I know, because I have tried to find it multiple times, and I haven't found it, and I'm quite google-savvy. I don't doubt that I could find it if I put in enough time, or if I was lucky to try the "right" method on the first try. It's probably also significantly easier to find it now that there is a bunch of chatter about it.

Ive never found it either. And there are always comments saying “it’s easy to find” which feeds into the notion that he’s not really anonymous. I don’t buy any of it.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#377
post #375
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I was aware of my characterization and the word peackocking (to make a vainglorious display; strut like a peacock) was used before it was co-opted by PUA community ( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/peacocking ). Let's rewrite that paragraph and use fewer emotionally charged words. -- As a younger person I thought transgenderism was about seeking attention. But being trained in the liberal arts I decided to que…

That rewrite completely loses the point though. The point is not "accepting people different than me", it's "having suitable principles to still fight in favour of people I might otherwise rightly or wrongly dislike". You completely removed the part where he not only didn't act antagonistically towards them but actively opposed other people doing so as well. And that part was the single most important part, and the p…

> If you think your rewrite was the same exact content, then I'm afraid I don't think you understood what he was saying at all.

Bingo!

He's obviously not a very good writer. I don't need to argue for freedom of speech and equal rights and justice for all because in my world those are givens. I don't need to justify to myself or others why those truths are self evident. Nor do I need to recount a story about being young and stupid. Everyone used to be young and stupid, that's also a given. There is no need to write it on a blog and show how you're so much better than what you used to be. Let your actions show how you are better. I don't need to be told when I can infer directly from someone's actions whether they're good or not. Words are deceptive, actions are truthful.

I don't put words like "very stupid", "angry", "I'm afraid", "fearful", etc. in my writing because I don't identify with those things and I don't want anyone reading my words to identify with them either. If I intend to say something then I say it without flowery language about my youth or emotionally charged words because I reserve those words for private conversations with people that I trust.

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of this read as a smoothed-over hit piece. An honest and comprehensive effort to rip apart and debunk neo-reactionary ideology is painted guilt-by-association style as "possibly legitimizing" or "describing" it. "[Exploring] and [upholding] research into innate biological differences between men and women" is "[giving] safe harbor to some genuinely egregious ideas". Asking people to politely contact the editor…

One trick that I noticed that adds considerable amount of 'spin' while allowing the article to remain factually correct is to present positive things about the group as subjective - coming from the group itself (which paints them as self-serving and lacking self-awareness), vague 'some' or (even better) some negatively characterized person (which taints it as unreliable), but to describe negative stuff as if it is ob…

I think the term "Russell Conjugation" captures this well.

https://tomdehnel.com/what-is-russell-conjugation/

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you don't propose a third possibility, it seems like you just didn't like my language? If I wrote "the reporter is either unaware that widely-available backups of the blog exist (despite apparently quoting from one in this story), or trying to create public speculation that something damaging about Alexander might be true when he knows it to be false", then would you agree with me?

> it seems like you just didn't like my language? yes, that is why this thread exists. grandparent of grandparent telling you that you would have won significantly more hearts and minds by skipping the attacks > Since you don't propose a 3rd possibility n.b. off the top, the whole problem here is you're reasoning about this like you're omniscient because theres a finite # of logic gates, but we're human and know ther…

I'm confused, and I'm not sure what you mean by the "3rd possibility [I] offered already". The New Yorker reporter suggested that maybe Alexander deleted his blog in order to conceal something bad that he'd written there from the NYT. That seems like a serious accusation to me, and I believe:

1. That this accusation is overwhelmingly likely to be false, because deleting the blog while leaving countless mirrors won't actually conceal what he wrote (and will actually popularize it short-term, due a sort of Streisand effect), and Alexander knows that, and Alexander is unlikely to take an action that would be futile or counter-productive.

2. That (1) is sufficiently obvious that the New Yorker reporter had to realize it.

3. That the New Yorker reporter published the accusation anyways, in bad faith (i.e., disingenuously, while knowing or believing that it's false), in order to smear Alexander.

For each step, do you agree or disagree? From your reply earlier, it seemed like you were simply declining to take a position? But you call it an otherwise coherent argument; so maybe you agree the New Yorker reporter probably did write in bad faith? So is our disagreement just whether it's okay to call a reporter for a major magazine who uses that platform to falsely degrade a pseudonymous blogger's reputation "stupid or disingenuous"? I agree that's an insult and not too polite, but it didn't seem particularly harsh given the public smear.

For what it's worth, I agree that my original post was generally flippant, because I was in a hurry and I strongly disliked the article. If you read through my post history, then you'll see that I typically write with more nuance (and that those posts get much less engagement, I guess demonstrating what everyone already knows about social media).

Re: Slate Star Codex and Silicon Valley’s War Against the Media

#380
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair. The only real reason I disagree with you (and probably him) is he _did_ continue to publish personal information. Enough to identify him, even without the last name. If someone repeatedly reveals their own first/middle name, location, and occupation, I think it's silly to call "we'll publish your last name" doxing. It seems like he might have just freaked out over a series of poor choices and didn't real…

Here's a different take. I tried a few times over the last years to figure out his last name, and failed. I didn't spend much time on it, but there was definitely a barrier there. Had the NYT published it, not only would that barrier have disappeared, but a large spotlight would suddenly have been shone on the name, and probably an onslaught of much-higher-profile internet articles about him/it, and quite possibly a…

I think you're right about the amount of scrutiny. I think he's pretty firmly a "public figure" now (more deliberately than most), his name is obfuscated at best, and I don't have a problem with the NYT publishing his last name.

I would have a real problem with it if he published under a pseudonym and the NYT were truly doxing him. But I don't think they'd have bothered with his last name at all if he were writing as "Bert Axelrose" or something.

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