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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#371

Post by invalidOrTaken »

mistermann wrote: post #350
sk5t wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I owned a company and the people I hired to manage it were playing games like this Imagine that you get to hire 5 people to run the company on your behalf, and four other directors each also hire 5 people to further their interests. Some of those other four directors want things that are nearly enough exactly the opposite of what you want, and you can do nothing to expel them, and precious little to change their…

> Some of those other four directors want things that are nearly enough exactly the opposite of what you want, and you can do nothing to expel them ... I am the owner of the company, and there's nothing I can do to expel them? > Also, the best five people who are willing to fill the roles you control are not exactly the ones you would like to hire, but nevertheless, they're the best available and willing . Now what?…

>I am the owner of the company, and there's nothing I can do to expel them?

"I am the owner of this computer, yet I can't know whether it will run a certain problem in finite time?"

"We are the dominant species on this planet, yet we can't change its course towards Alpha Centauri?"

Ownership is more of a negative than positive good---that is, ownership means you own something more than other people, not that you're omnipotent regarding it.

A human can own a computer yet still be unable to get it to do something.

"Never attribute to scarcity what can be attributed to technical debt."

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#372

Post by chii »

chr1 wrote: post #287
systemvoltage wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

The idea about presentations is very good, but it alone won't fix the problem. We need to be able to vote for individual decisions instead of people, and we on hn are best positioned to fix the democracy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377423

> We need to be able to vote for individual decisions instead of people

What about this: for most decisions, people elect their representative, and don't directly participate. The representative votes on decisions in gov't, but their vote is weighted by the number of people they represent (let's call this V).

However, if there is an issue that a person deems important to participate in, then that person gets to directly vote for said issue. Then, the elected representative's vote _for that issue_ drops by 1, and thus their vote only weights V-1.

Hence, by this method, most people who don't give a shit can continue not to, and allow their electoral representative to make decisions on their behalf. But direct democracy is available for those who care enough.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#373

Post by ativzzz »

js8 wrote: post #361
systemvoltage wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

> One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. One solution to this is more direct democracy. When people can propose initiatives and vote on them in referendums, it is harder for politicians to ignore that agenda. This works pretty well in Swit…

> This works pretty well in Switzerland.

Democracy that works in a country of 8.6 million does not scale up to work for a country of 330 million.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#374

Post by ativzzz »

austincheney wrote: post #281
makomk wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, the people burning everything down aren't even particularly likely to be black, efforts to spin this as some kind of necessary fight back against racism by people who've been suffering not withstanding. The folks cheering it on and advocating for this to their audiences definitely aren't - they're largely white, middle-class techies and journos and other well-off educated folks who aren't worrie…

I have noticed only one common demographic among rioters: age.

Rioters are almost always young. Especially now, when many young people are unemployed (Corona) or out of school for the summer.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#375

Post by latortuga »

senderista wrote: post #272
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Civil disobedience != violence. Illegal action is sometimes justified. Violence never is.

This is just false though. Sometimes violence is all you have left. Without violence, we wouldn't be a country. Without violence a black person would still be worth 3/5 of a white person. History shows us that violence is sometimes necessary. We arm police specifically because violence is sometimes required.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#376

Post by a9h74j »

systemvoltage wrote: post #257
someguyorother wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A control theory idea: use continuous voting. When the support falls below some threshold (e.g. 50%), kick the candidate out. But now you'll get an unstable system where candidates get kicked out all the time and are too populist because they don't expect to live long. So add a low-pass filter. When the moving average of the candidate's support falls below the threshold and a definite other candidate's support is hig…

Only on HN do you find a theory of politics based on Controls/DSP fundamentals. Nyquist plot of political instability would be nice. I applaud you.

Okay, so this is where I will bring my proposal for Modular Government.

Next ammendment: direct election of cabinet members.

Also, all changes to policies to be parameterized and adiabatic.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#377

Post by manfredo »

freeone3000 wrote: post #368
manfredo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. Really, honestly, think about this rationale and think about what it would look like if people with different views than you applied this line of reasoning. Would you be okay with anti-aborti…

No, for two reasons: First, no one is forcing you to have an abortion you don't want. Anti-abortion activity is for the sake of others, and never yourself. This makes it no less noble of an endeavor for your personal beliefs, but since other people having abortions don't actually affect you one wit, it's hard to see abortion as having the same urgency as police brutality, where people at random are dying daily, and a…

Tell that to the people who genuinely believe that termination of pregnancies is murder. I don't deny that you see abortion in a different light (and so do I). That's the point. It's clear that the comment above is written without consideration for the fact that people have different worldviews.

Your comment is just as empowering for said activists to say "voting hasn't worked, murdering the unborn remains legal nationwide. We need to use direct action against abortion providers".

The idea that force is justified because democracy has not produced the desired outcome directly leads to a world where might makes right.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#378

Post by manfredo »

selectodude wrote: post #364
manfredo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. Really, honestly, think about this rationale and think about what it would look like if people with different views than you applied this line of reasoning. Would you be okay with anti-aborti…

Are you saying they haven't? The DOJ considers anti-abortion activists domestic terrorists and treats them as such.

And rightly so. That's my point: using force to override democracy is bad, and leads to a world where might makes right. The same scrutiny should be applied to the groups torching police departments.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#379

Post by kgin »

ativzzz wrote: post #373
js8 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. One solution to this is more direct democracy. When people can propose initiatives and vote on them in referendums, it is harder for politicians to ignore that agenda. This works pretty well in Swit…

> This works pretty well in Switzerland. Democracy that works in a country of 8.6 million does not scale up to work for a country of 330 million.

Considering how often this is the explanation for why we can’t have nice things, I’m beginning to think our country is too big.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#380

Post by LiquidSky »

js8 wrote: post #361
systemvoltage wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

> One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. One solution to this is more direct democracy. When people can propose initiatives and vote on them in referendums, it is harder for politicians to ignore that agenda. This works pretty well in Swit…

>This works pretty well in Switzerland.

The place where women couldn't vote in federal elections until 1971, and in local elections as late as 1990?

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