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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#371

Post by [deleted] »

threeseed wrote: post #260
pochamago wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there are a lot of pandemic relevant factors that are pretty different. 25m people vs 300m. Island nation, less international travelers, very different climate during the opposite season.

a) Is Canada and Mexico affecting or is somehow responsible for the disastrous way that the US is handling COVID-19 ? Otherwise it’s a moot point. b) Number of international travellers is irrelevant given that the policy in Australia was to quarantine ALL visitors for 14 days. Same policy that the UK has now adopted and you can’t argue that they don’t have a lot of international travellers. Again it is simply bad pol…

[deleted]

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#372

Post by microcolonel »

techsupporter wrote: post #223
roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

It's not much of a chasm, trust me. Once the ends justify the means, the state can build up in a couple decades to doing basically anything. It didn't take long in Venezuela.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#373

Post by cpwright »

techsupporter wrote: post #223
roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools.

https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#374

Post by 2rsf »

HideousKojima wrote: post #347
2rsf wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Oman ? pop 4.829 million, 4,019 cases with only 17 deaths. Or Belgium that does have quarantine rules but still have more cases of deaths. It's not a game, and we don't fully understand how this works so maybe we should stop comparing.

If we're talking about efficacy of government lockdown policies, universal healthcare, etc., then we absolutely should compare. And a cursory glance at the data suggests that government lockdown policies have minimal effect on the spread of the virus, there seems to be little to no correlation between severity of lockdown and cases/deaths

I saw someone else saying that today, do you have a source for that ?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#375

Post by jwalgenbach »

ginko wrote: post #269
votepaunchy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Australia has kangaroos and the Us doesn’t. What does English have to do with COVID—19?

So what country do ou think is more similar culturally to the US, then? Or is your point just that America is Special and can't be compared to anyone?

Why don't you choose one that has approximately the same population and same population density -- that's why choosing an individual U.S. state might be a better choice because the U.S. is large and has a wide range of population densities.

The key point here is transmission of an infectious disease, so to get a proper comparison, you need to start with approximately the same probabilities of people infecting one another. That begins with proximity. Comparing the U.S. and Australia doesn't work because of that.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#376

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

matthewheath wrote: post #359
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mention the scientists because I'm not criticising them. The only reason politicians are deferring to experts is they've realised experts are actually useful whereas before they didn't like them (something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall?) Conversely you haven't touched on the fact that the buggers are constantly spinning, deferring blame for not getting enough PPE,…

> something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall? Michael Gove said, during the Brexit referendum, that "people in this country have had enough of experts".[1] -- [1] https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d1...

That's the one, thanks.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#377

Post by apostacy »

henrikschroder wrote: post #272
jeffbee wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to EuroMOMO, Sweden's excess mortality rate this year is "high", France's is "low" and Ireland's is "no excess". https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

The map shows per-week z-score excess, not some kind of yearly total. What you said only applies to week 17. During week 15 (Easter), Sweden had "very high" excess, Ireland had "low" excess, while UK, France, Spain, and Italy had "extremely high" excess.

I believe far more people are going to die over the next few years from the economic collapse than the pandemic would have killed had we used the Swedish model.

For most readers of HN, this has just been like a vacation. Our investments have lost some value. We will have to lower our expectations for our next jobs. Maybe we can't buy a second car.

Most countries have burned down the village in order to save it.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#378

Post by ascagnel_ »

rubidium wrote: post #274
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

In an ideal world, the shelter-in-place orders would have done a few things:

- Slowed the spread of the virus, so it won't overwhelm the capacity of a nation's healthcare system

- Build up testing and tracing capacity to track future spread.

In the US, the SIP orders are an overwhelming success on the first point, and cases are slowly starting to drop off.

On the second point, the US is still far, far behind on testing. For a nation the size of the US, there needs to be something on the order of 2 million tests per day, compared to the the current capacity of roughly 300,000. I cannot overstate how important this testing failure is; without it, businesses will be closed for longer, more jobs will be lost permanently, and the citizens get frustrated that they're stuck at home without any income.

If there was adequate testing capacity, businesses could reopen with precautions, and the government could sustainably offer benefits to those testing positive so they can afford to stay home and not spread the virus any further. If there isn't adequate testing capacity, even with precautions, future waves are more likely, and any of those waves can overwhelm the healthcare system.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#379

Post by asabjorn »

rayiner wrote: post #310
djannzjkzxn wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It spread much faster in New York so we got to see the devastation it can cause. Same will eventually happen everywhere else if the measures to slow the spread are lifted. I don’t get why you’d want to exclude the data from New York when it’s our best example of what a full-scale outbreak looks like in the US.

Even with restrictions, the virus will eventually spread to most of the population. The question is time scale. In New York—thanks to its density and reliance on public transportation—even a full lock down couldn’t avoid a brush fire that left the hospital system overwhelmed. That hasn’t been true in the rest of the country. In nearly states, the death rate is elevated less than 10% from normal levels. In 14 states,…

> couldn’t avoid a brush fire that left the hospital system overwhelmed

Agree with most of what you say. However, the hospitals were not overwhelmed as evidenced by USNS Comfort leaving NYC after only treating 182 patients [1]. Similarly, Javits center temporary hospital had many spare beds [2]. The governor thought the hospitals would be overwhelmed which is a very different thing.

People that should have used the spare hospital beds and seen doctors didn't due to the lockdown, which makes this fact extra relevant. An overwhelming percentage of people that died from coronavirus in NYC had one or more other serious health conditions. Question is how many people that was classified as also having covid died of other underlying conditions and did not seek proper medical care due to fear of coronavirus.

[1] https://news.usni.org/2020/04/27/hospital-ship-comfort-ends-...

[2] https://abc7ny.com/javits-center-usns-comfort-coronavirus-ny...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#380

Post by threeseed »

RickJWagner wrote: post #311
threeseed wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Per today's RealClearPolitics chart: US 260 deaths per million UK 499 France 404 Netherlands 322 Germany (Kudos!) 94.8 The US is not doing badly at all.

Most of those countries are seeing their death rate decline. US is plateauing.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

Which means the US is on track to at minimum 500+ within the next few months making it the worst country in the world.

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