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Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

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371–380 of 509 posts

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#371
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does someone have a de-facto monopoly in some markets? In this case, and in the case of any disaster, that question has an answer, and there’s no problem that a government or anyone can solve. People who happened to make masks and sanitizers, or happened have them in stock, by luck, suddenly became de-facto monopolies. And it will just as suddenly go away. > When competition exists, the prices will fall to appr…

What the free market does is incentivize the correct degree of stockpiling behaviour, by maximizing profits for those who stockpiled a correct amount of the correct goods. Sufficient stockpiles equates to sufficient supply during emergencies, which is exactly what society needs. When prices for goods during a crisis are astronomical, that indicates that the market did not work effectively in producing stockpiles, eit…

The problem with this oft-used dogmatic argument is that it’s pure claim and no evidence. It’s a specious theory, it sounds great on paper but only comes true once in a blue moon. I happen to work for a company that got stuck with a stockpile after a bubble, a company that actually tried not to get caught up in oversupply, and it was not “socially beneficial”.

Your explicitly stated assumption in your argument above is that you have to be lucky enough to have guessed exactly the right amount to stockpile, which almost never happens in reality, and is pure luck. There is no way to see the future and know the “correct amount” for an unforeseen emergency.

There are multiple ways that stockpiling behavior can back-fire and turn into economic loss, and in reality these actually happen routinely. One is that you stockpile and the need never arises, which is not only economic waste, it’s also externalized environmental waste. Another is too many people stockpiling, and they lose money when sudden demand occurs. A third is over-stockpiling and losing income when demand drops too quickly. And there are more.

It’s a huge and unrealistic assumption to think that we can stockpile the “correct” amounts in advance of a crisis.

You’re also conflating money with well being. “Socially beneficial” is exaggerating the idea of market balance, the benefit you’re talking about is economic benefit, and fails to take into health, safety, or happiness of actual people. This whole theory that the unrestrained market will be optimal depends on having enough time to reach that state, it has never properly considered global disease pandemics. Neither Adam Smith not any economist since him has tried to claim that the free market balance happens instantly or always, nor that it can’t cause economic loss when the conditions for free market prosperity aren’t there.

> When prices for goods during a crisis are astronomical, that indicates that the market did not work effectively in producing stockpiles, either because there was a general lack of awareness that a particular good could see a spike in demand, or because anti-price-gouging laws prevented profit-motivated individuals from acting on their awareness.

I’m with you on the first part... it’s true by definition that a crisis brings demand for things that there was no awareness of. The second part doesn’t make sense, you said prices are astronomical because anti-price-gouging laws are in effect? What do you mean, why would anti-price-gouging laws cause price gouging?

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#372
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's right there in what you have written yourself. 31% is a finite number, that means scarcity. 16 million homes is a finite number, that means scarcity. In a world without scarcity you'd have infinite food and infinite houses. We do not live in such a world. You don't give people without the ability to pay for things stuff for free because you don't want to absolutely wreck your economy. If I'd get food and housing…

> 31% is a finite number, that means scarcity. Scarity doesn't mean finite. It means shortage. Wasted food and vacant homes aren't shortages.

"Scarcity is the limited availability of a commodity", emphasis on _limited_. Scarcity does not mean shortage. It means you do not have infinite of something.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A billionaire who wants to stockpile a million masks just in case definitely not "more important" than a million poor people getting 1 mask each. Real people don't behave like this. A billionaire can't make personal use of a million masks and there is no point in stockpiling them during a crisis just in case there is some future crisis. They're not going to be worth more a year from now than they are today because…

> And willingness to pay is a pretty good proxy when marginal utility falls off pretty quickly with quantity. I don't understand why people aren't talking about how disposable PPE defies this point at the low end. Hoarding a million masks doesn't make you better off than buying a thousand, but buying ten N95 masks is as good as buying zero. Masks, gloves, even hand sanitizer are consumables, so getting a little bit o…

> but buying ten N95 masks is as good as buying zero

Depends on the situation. N95 masks can be decontaminated and reused pretty easily (IIRC 150C for 10 minutes). If you're only using them once or twice per week, letting the mask sit for 3-4 days is enough for most of the viral material to be destroyed by exposure to the normal environment.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People whose labor is worth less than the minimum wage become unemployable. Being unemployed means you can’t acquire skills or experience and is bad for your mental health and social attachment. If you want to look at the literature you can start with Card and Krueger, which shows minimal effects for a small minimum wage discontinuity, I believe on the NJ/NY border. The Seattle minimum wage study showed a reduction i…

The problem with minimum wage is that there is no minimum wage guarantee by the state. The same problem applies to price controls of any kind. If nobody is willing to sell you a product that satisfies the price controls then you go home empty handed. If the rules are too strict and end up preventing the market from working then the government is to blame and the government has to step in and actually provide whatever…

> If the government wants to prevent you from getting a job that pays less than minimum wage it has to provide you with a job that actually does pay minimum wage.

I like this way of putting it. I'll use it in the future.

Similarly here, if the government wants to make it illegal to sell hand sanitizer at $5/bottle, they should provide hand sanitizer at $1/bottle.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying for resale by definition means that more TP is available for purchase.

Buying for resale doesn't magically create TP. The amount of TP available to consumers is the same, the amount of money made by TP producers is the same. But consumers have to spend more money, because there's a parasitic layer of resellers introducing friction into the system.

"Buying for resale" could include buying up now-useless stocks of institutional TP/hand sanitizer and re-packaging it for consumer purchase. Supply increased and value added.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#377
post #333
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's capturing availability, the manufacturer made the availability. There is no value-adding middle man role with a 10x value here (well value to anyone other than the middle man).

Watch out of you'll end up in a debate about whether and how HFT and front-running are good for the Main Street investor...

I don't think anyone defends front-running. It's illegal in various forms for good reasons.

A _manufacturer_ charging more is not _front-running_.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's none available to purchase at the old, lower price. So he's providing value to me, someone who wishes to buy one.

Because he bought them all. This is why, in states where disasters are probable due to natural issues (hurricanes, earthquakes), price gouging is a crime. Not only is it a crime, but it is one where there is full bi-partisan support for the continuance of the law. If you want to put a smile on the face on someone suffering from calamity, first help them, and then arrest the bastard who tried to profit off of it. The…

If the gouger actually bought them all then you have a monopoly, which is a different problem. The gauger, instead, bought some. So did many other people. The difference is he's willing to sell his. That's the value to me he's providing. Could you retry your analysis with this corrected information?

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#379
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the free market does is incentivize the correct degree of stockpiling behaviour, by maximizing profits for those who stockpiled a correct amount of the correct goods. Sufficient stockpiles equates to sufficient supply during emergencies, which is exactly what society needs. When prices for goods during a crisis are astronomical, that indicates that the market did not work effectively in producing stockpiles, eit…

The problem with this oft-used dogmatic argument is that it’s pure claim and no evidence. It’s a specious theory, it sounds great on paper but only comes true once in a blue moon. I happen to work for a company that got stuck with a stockpile after a bubble, a company that actually tried not to get caught up in oversupply, and it was not “socially beneficial”. Your explicitly stated assumption in your argument above…

>>The problem with this oft-used dogmatic argument is that it’s pure claim and no evidence.

The anti-money position you're espousing is the one that's dogmatic. It ignores what a century of economic scholarship says about how prices work to measure shortages and direct resources to alleviate them.

It belies an anti-profit cognitive bias:

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/08/04/we-have-an-ingrained-an...

>>The problem with this oft-used dogmatic argument is that it’s pure claim and no evidence.

The theory that price controls harm the functioning of the economy is overwhelmingly supported by the empirical evidence.

There is plenty of evidence showing the detrimental effects of price controls on post-disaster situations (aka anti-price-gouging laws) specifically as well, e.g.

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1/90...

>>It’s a huge and unrealistic assumption to think that we can stockpile the “correct” amounts in advance of a crisis.

We can get closer to the correct amount when people are incentivized to calculate the correct amount, and the corrective feedback loops of the market work to reward good allocators of capital (those who are good at making predictions on the supply excesses and shortages, and acting of them) with more capital, and poor allocators of capital with less. Overtime, this leads to an economy that allocates resources more effectively. Profit/loss produces this outcome spontaneously and naturally, as a very consequence of the behaviour that leads to profit, versus that which leads to losses.

Most knowledge is diffused widely across society, and it only comes to bear when people are financially incentivized to act on it. Many have specialized domains of expertise owing not from PhDs and theory, but from mundane experience. The economy is too complex to govern using theory, which is why we need bottom-up processes, like capital allocation through emergent phenomena like markets, to tap this vast ocean of knowledge, in order to govern it.

Prices work. That's what evidence shows. You will not find the economic scholarship supporting your canned anti-money/profit talking points.

>>The second part doesn’t make sense, you said prices are astronomical because anti-price-gouging laws are in effect? What do you mean, why would anti-price-gouging laws cause price gouging?

I meant the grey/black market price. It's astronomical due to extreme shortages during crises, due in turn to stockpiling not sufficiently being incentivized, owing to anti-price-gouging laws.

Price caps paradoxically lead to higher prices.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we?" I have a question, if you don't mind answering. What are you doing personally to help the homeless and less fortunate than yourself? I get that it is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain that other people aren't doing enough. The way to help people isn't to demand that other people pay more, but to use your own resources for the causes which are most important for you. Simply giving more money to t…

You just wrote out this long, politically charged comment basically asserting your opinion as fact, which appears to boil down to "socialism bad". Don't you think most people here have made up their minds on that issue and are tired of watching endless fights about it? We aren't on slashdot. Also, this: > the only way that humans have ever lifted themselves out of poverty is through productive labour and innovation .…

> You just wrote out this long, politically charged comment basically asserting your opinion as fact, which appears to boil down to "socialism bad".

Well yes. Theft is bad, and socialism is theft.

> Don't you think most people here have made up their minds on that issue and are tired of watching endless fights about it? We aren't on slashdot.

I'm well aware of how far left most of HN leans. Sometimes I wonder if this place is an internal discussion forum for the CCP (There are certain moderators who bark when anything critical of China gets posted here). I have a posting limit of 5 posts every few hours because my views are "the wrong views."

> ...is utterly false. Maybe somewhat true in the general case (although less and less so even there in more recent history), but not at all for individuals. People and governments have helped other people and governments many times without asking for anything back.

I was referring to the general case. Ultimately, somebody must perform labour or somebody must perform invention for the standard of living of themselves or others to improve. The work won't do itself.

The question is one of whether you are implicitly entitled to the results of other people's work and invention, which I refer to as theft, versus instead receiving charity out of other people's good nature.

The capitalist is often described as "evil," yet many engage in voluntary charity, and the socialist deludes himself to be the moral arbiter of good, when in fact, he simply thinks stealing the fruits of others labour is the solution to problems.

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