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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#371

Post by saagarjha »

ummwhat wrote: post #346
thebradbain wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tests don't not work (I believe that within the middle of bell-curve they accomplish their goal well), but at the extremes they are prone to gamification, especially to those in the know. For example, the pre-2017 SAT had some well known (and some lesser known) tricks that you would only know by studying the test, rather than the material: - ALL sections (and sub-sections) have questions that strictly increase in…

Maybe this is will be seen as radical but I think the best way to end all this gaming is for collegeboard to not release their previous tests to the public. There simply shouldn't be enough data out there to study the test rather than the material. All that should be known in advance is the topics, format (multi choice v. Open ended) and point system. I'm sure the cottage industry of test prep companies would hate it…

The CollegeBoard is notoriously closed with their tests.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#372

Post by grugagag »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #195
knzhou wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bribery scandal especially depresses me, because a lot of the colleges impacted had official bribery systems in place -- you're supposed to donate to the "Development Office" to get on the "Dean's List", or some other set of euphemisms. What the colleges were actually outraged about is that these middling-rich people tried to cheap out by paying a smaller bribe to some other office.

If someone donates enough money for a lab or an entire building or something that can be used by students for decades as a means to get their underperforming kid in, yeah, that's technically a bribe but I'm kind of okay with that because the good so vastly outweighs the bad.

How many labs can an Uni build to accept all the silverspoons? A lot of money end up not in the common pool of resources but are pocketed in different ways by the staff and board. This myth is becoming trite already. The rich pay their way in and not necessarily for the education but for the credentials.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#373

Post by saagarjha »

leetcrew wrote: post #229
jldugger wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the subject tests are kind of a niche environment. You can't prep for them with the $20 official book and there are like 20 of them. (Also Amazon lists it for 30 but we get the point). You basically need to go to a school where they offer AP coursework, and pay something close to $100 bucks to the College Board to take subject tests. When I was doing college search, the only college I recall that requested these…

note that the SAT subject tests are actually different from AP tests. when I was applying to college, a smart kid from the regular section of could expect to do fairly well on the SAT subject test for that topic. the AP tests ask questions on material that isn't typically covered in the regular classes, so it's hard to do well on them if you haven't taken the AP course or done a lot of extracurricular study.

Depends on the AP exam.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#374

Post by barry-cotter »

perl4ever wrote: post #363
barry-cotter wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming majority of the high IQ are not Mensa members. They are academics, doctors, lawyers, successful businesspeople, the kinds of people for whom it is more common in their friends group to have a Master’s degree than to be a high school dropout.

Some people consider a person with a Master's degree to be a dropout. (yes, I know, not necessarily...)

Those people are called academics. The kinds of Master’s degrees that are rent seeking credentialism, MBAs, MSWs, M.Ed.s are far more common than consolation prizes for those who didn’t get their Ph.D.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#375

Post by saagarjha »

applecrazy wrote: post #82
UncleMeat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons the subject tests are not especially useful. And since they test knowledge rather than aptitude, making them more difficult doesn't actually find smarter people but instead people who had access to more rigorous high school coursework. At the GRE level this is even more extreme. For competitive programs a perfect score doesn't distinguish you so taking the test can only harm you. When apply…

The subject tests, IMO, are terrible. I took the Chemistry one right after taking AP (college level) Chemistry, and while I got a full score on that, I got absolutely destroyed on the subject test. They asked trivia-like questions and barely tested for actual chemistry knowledge.

Interestingly, I had the opposite experience, finding the AP Chemistry exam more difficult than the subject exam. I think part of it is that I have no love for chemistry, so I just memorized the things I needed for the subject test.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#376

Post by hyperpallium »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

So, over time, MIT researchers decrease in quality, and it loses prestige to other institutions, perhaps overseas, perhaps China.

Instead, I think they will continue to try to evaluate genuine merit. SAT can be and is routinely gamed, through prep. You have to be truly outstanding to manage it alone.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#377

Post by danielg6 »

danielg6 wrote: post #326
snazz wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't the AP tests far more difficult than the SAT subject tests? That's what I remember at least for chemistry (maybe?) back when I took both exams.

To clarify, I meant to say “along with”. I took the APs and their SAT subject equivalents

Also, I wouldn’t necessarily agree that AP exams are more difficult than the SAT subject tests. School curriculum is not uniform. In fact, in my high school the material for certain SAT subjects tests was _only_ taught in AP classes.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#378

Post by sgustard »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

Here's a list of schools that are already "test optional."

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional

I leave it an exercise to the reader to decide if these schools are less egalitarian than (say) the Ivies, MIT or Stanford.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#380

Post by barry-cotter »

saagarjha wrote: post #370
barry-cotter wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good test takers are people who have learned things and know them well enough to pass a test on it. There are many kinds of test. The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible. MIT could drop the real SAT tomorrow and still fil…

> The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible. This is what the CollegeBoard wants you think. You don’t have to be all that great to realize that the people writing the test are hardly better than you are at both the subject…

They’re hiring two Ph.D. holding psychometricians right now. https://careers.collegeboard.org/search-jobs?title=Psychomet...

In many cases, not, in many case.

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