Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#371

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

jan_g wrote: post #364

Aunche wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not opposed to paid parental leave, but it's not equitable at all. It benefits the rich the most, and may even punish the poor. For example, there's no reason a senior investment banker should be paid high 6 figures to take care of their kids. They should have more than enough money saved up themselves to take unpaid time off. Meanwhile, the most vulnerable will have are even harder time finding full time employm…

In European countries that do have paid parental leave, the system is funded by state and has attached a couple of constraints. One of those is that the payments to parents are capped. So, a person earning high salary won't get it in full during parental leave. Usually it's something like max. twice the average salary or something similar.

It’s the same in the US states with paid parental leave. If you want wealth redistribution, then use marginal tax rates, but don’t complicate the benefits by making people qualify for them.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#372

Post by rglullis » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #334

kraigie wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence temps. Or they can redistribute the salary as overtime. If there are enough interested workers.

They just employed someone for a full time job because they needed to spend €x on someone to do Y work Now they don't have to pay that money, which is fine, but they then need to find someone on a 14 month contract that will do it for the same salary as the person they just employed. Then at the end of it they are left with paying an overlap from the contractor to someone new

First, a little nitpicking: one of the parents can take at most 12 months off, so there is no "14 month contract".

Second, the whole thing can be way more complex. In Germany a mother has her job secured for the moment she announces to be pregnant to until the child is 3 years old. So one could decide that will take the Elterngeld for 12 months but actually just go back to work 18 months, and the employer has no way of stopping it.

Third and final point: NONE OF THIS MATTERS! Trying to find the "fairness" in this is nothing but some incredibly naive exercise. Like most things in life, salaries are not determined by the amount of value produced but rather by market value of labor. Risks when dealing with labor force should be already priced in.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#373

Post by scrollbar » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

Not to downplay the importance of your fathering and nurturing your child's passions at all-

My understanding of the research around personality development is that something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. The early few years are when we get conditioned with the core emotional programming: "I am safe" vs. "I am at risk" - "I am lovable" vs. "I am unlovable." etc. which plays a huge role down the line in lifestyle, relationships, and life in general.

Probably not a big deal whether it's the father or mother at the young age, but having adults around to be available to the emotional needs of the young child seems to be extremely important. Maybe easier to split the "full time job" of parenting in this critical period?

If you want to nerd out, check out "Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self - The Neurobiology of Emotional Development" by Allan Schore

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#374

Post by keanzu » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

rileymat2 wrote: post #327

_jal wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens So what's the United State's excuse? (A lot of US citizens are somehow unaware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... )

I think for this sort of discussion you need to look at per capita production in the linked chart.

Production only tells half the story. To figure out how much surplus you have for social engineering you need:

  surplus = production - consumption

The US was a net importer of oil up until September 2019. There's almost no surplus.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#375

Post by ipnon » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

jredwards wrote: post #312

In the tech worker's paradise that is California, I'm preparing for my generous two weeks of paternity leave. My co-worker, having not been employed at the company for a year yet, is preparing to burn all four days of his vacation time because he's not entitled to paternity leave yet. This is broken.

It's hard to be enthusiastic about American labor practices hearing anecdotes like this. I think my quality of life would improve by immigrating to a country that provides the benefits like healthcare and childcare as a right. This is because even though I would likely take a salary cut of over 50%, I would have access to the sorts of intangible life experiences that are difficult or impossible to price. For example, raising my child for the first year of their life, living for another decade.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#376

Post by simion314 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #55

epaga wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's months. Amazing for employees and terrifying for employers. Someone I know took a new job somewhere, only to let them know a week or so after being there that his wife was about to have their child and he was going to be gone for the next 14 months. They were not going to be able to fire him without repercussions. He was not required to let them know during the interview.

How does anything get done? If it were a three person company, one person is now gone for 14 months and legally can’t be replaced? A nightmare for the other two employees.

>How does anything get done?

What about the case where the guy leaves because is cool in software engineering to change jobs very often? or because now language X is cool and the guy wants to add that on the CV and not your old boring language Y.

In any case your employee can leave so make sure you are not dead because most of the value is in this person head. Though you might as always make a counter offer and pay him much more if he is so valuable.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#377

Post by the_af » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #365

the_af wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as there's not much to "buy" Well, you have to buy that the data actually supports this (which your last sentence implies it's not a given) and there's the implication that women voluntarily entering into the workforce have somehow made things worse for other women; that's the implied "narrative". And of course, that women in the workforce are a major factor in lowering wages, and that there are no ways to stop the…

> Well, you have to buy that the data actually supports this (which your last sentence implies it's not a given) Got it, so you're saying you don't think the mass influx of new workers drove down wages? It seems like a pretty straight forward argument. Would love to hear your thoughts that contradict it. > ... and there's the implication that women voluntarily entering into the workforce have somehow made things wors…

> so you're saying you don't think the mass influx of new workers drove down wages? It seems like a pretty straight forward argument.

It seems straightforward but it actually isn't. It's not self-evident that women entering the workforce must automatically drive down wages. Maybe other interconnected factors enter into play and cancel it out. Maybe they drive wages slightly lower, but other major factors dwarf this (as someone mentioned in another comment). Maybe... there is no data to support it; like you said, you'd "love" to see the data.

> I didn't see this in the comment you responded to.

I can be mistaken, and the original poster can clarify what they meant, but unfortunately I do see it.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#378

Post by growlist » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #283

growlist wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

> and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work. I don't buy this narrative, sorry. Also, of course women who want to stay at home taking care of the babies while the father is less involved in child-rearing are perfectly welcome to do it. It's just that I think it's unfair that society expect…

But hang on - you painted a picture of the burnt out tired mother that can't wait to get back to work, away from the drudgery of motherhood. I'm saying that's not a fair representation of many womens' priorities. I could even take it a step further and say that for many women, emancipation in terms of employment has destroyed their chances of having what would really make them happy (a family life) due to the need to put education, building a career etc. ahead of finding a partner and having children. To be provocative I could say women have swapped (or had swapped for them) marriage to a husband for marriage to their employer. Wasn't feminism supposed to be about unshackling women?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#379

Post by keanzu » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #300

keanzu wrote: post #175

> noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo A lot can be achieved when your country floats on oil. The Government Pension Fund Global, aka the Oil Fund, was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen in 2018. If others had this kind of safety net they might behave in a similar manner. Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens.

> Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens So what's the United State's excuse? (A lot of US citizens are somehow unaware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... )

"The US has cemented its status as a net exporter in world oil markets, a sharp reversal from past years that could affect its ties to foreign allies.

The top oil producer and consumer exported 89,000 more barrels of crude oil and refined petroleum products a day than it imported in September [2019], the first full month of a positive oil trade balance since the 1940s, the Energy Information Administration said Friday. Imports exceeded exports by 12m barrels a day a decade ago."

https://www.ft.com/content/9cbba7b0-12dd-11ea-a7e6-62bf4f9e5...

This is a recent development, September 2019, and is a very small volume relative to the US population/economy. There's little to no oil surplus in the US and thus it is not a petrostate.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#380

Post by darkwater » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #284

darkwater wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is still unclear to me how forcing both parents to work full-time jobs is beneficial for anyone other than corporations. The point of these measures is not letting/forcing both parents to work. It's to make both genders equals in the eye of the capitalist employer. So, depending on the job and remuneration of the parents, maybe just one can work. And this working parent can be the mother.

In theory, yes, but unless the cost of supporting a family can be done with one job (as it used to be), then this is kind of a moot point. Both parents can choose to work part-time, but typically that means they'll be in poverty.

Well that depends on the social class and the country where the family lives in. But yeah, what you say is true for too many families even in the richest countries.