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U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

reuters.com

371–380 of 413 posts

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#371
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, if a large quantity of PTFE particles was introduced into your blood stream are you stating that wouldn't deprive your cells of oxygen? I think you're making some health related claims and assumptions that may be correct in limited circumstances but haven't been sufficiently studied to come to a good conclusion on.

Umm... yes? Why would PTFE "deprive cells of oxygen"? What cells? What size particles? Do you think they'd block your arteries or something? Why would that be any different than any other material? And how exactly would such particles get into your body? By injection? PTFE is chemically and biologically inert. It's well studied, and has enjoyed extensive medical use inside peoples' bodies for over half a century. I'm…

The process to ensure your cells get enough oxygen is a complex one. When you're exercising heavily certain chemical signals are sent out to ask the heart to increase blood flow to compensate for the high consumption of oxygen - similarly injuries produce stressor signals when the body is damaged and bleeding (since the lowered blood pressure decreases the efficiency of the heart's ability to deliver oxygen) - if an inert chemical was introduced into the blood stream slowly it'd gradually reduce the amount of oxygen carried in blood as it flows through your body by decreasing the proportion of red blood cells per volume, to compensate maybe your heart needs to beat a bit quicker deliver the same amount of oxygen via blood. Keeping your blood clean of impurities is traditionally (mostly) handled by the kidneys, if some PTFE is introduced into the blood stream does PTFE recognize this impurity as a dilution - will it properly filter it out? How efficient is that filtering and how much will it stress your kidneys?

Basically, bodies are complex objects - this is what studies are for and long term effects can take time to be detected. I don't have any evidence to the contrary, but I am skeptical of how conclusive the supporting evidence is and would place the onus on proving harmlessness rather than harmfulness.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gore-tex (at least the heavy 'classic' kind) doesn't have any refreshable coating. Its an inner layer of moisture wicking mesh, stuck to a thin rubbery ptfe membrane of some sort and an outer very abrasion resistant layer which is hydrophobic when clean. It can be boil washed and special treatments are advised against. It is very waterproof while surprisingly breathable.

No, Gore Tex -- and all other membrane systems -- rely on DWR to keep the face fabric from wetting out. The face fabric is only water repellent if it's finished with oil, wax, or DWR. When the finish is degraded, rain will wet out the shell and breathability plummets. There are no exceptions. If you invent a fabric that is both breathable and permanently water repellent (as in, it sheds water in beads), then I promis…

Somewhat serious question: do you think it matters if it looks absolutely silly?

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#373
post #365
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think democracy was always problematic. Its original form, direct democracy, was vulnerable to the tyranny of the masses. Representative democracy, long described as the solution, really isn’t. Representatives are self-interested, just like everyone else, and so we cannot expect them to be purely faithful executors of their respective mandates. What we did not expect, and perhaps are now beginning to, is that human…

In the U.S. we can trace a lot of the damage back to Citizen's United v F.E.C. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-205.ZS.html

The problem is that without Citizens United, all that kept the FEC from banning reporting on political candidates was that the law didn't extend there yet. Because what is a front-page article on a candidate if not an in-kind contribution? Why should the Wall Street Journal be allowed to run an article praising the most recent Republican candidate, if the Sierra Club can't publish a documentary condemning their policies?

People throw a lot of hate towards Citizens United. But the alternative was worse.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tyranny of the masses Seeing California's proposition process, I agree. It also shows how disfunctional representative democracy is.

Interestingly, the ballot prop exists in its current form today because in the early 1900s the southern pacific railroad basically controlled the entire state government. The ballot prop was used to solve the problem of capture of the government by a group of unaccountable elites.

Which works until the 'unaccountable elites' decide that the proposition is unconstitutional. Like Prop 187 [0], a (successful, at ~60% in favor) 1994 proposal to limit services provided by the state to legal residents only. (Agree or disagree with the proposal, "no your constitutional amendment is unconstitutional" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And yes, this was federal court, but the incoming California governor aborted the appeal)

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_California_Proposition_18...

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#375
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the coating from non-stick pans makes its way down the drain (or down the toilet) and back into the water system of the planet then you really can't.

Not with properly seasoned cast-iron cookware, it won't.

Pollution already comes from production alone, whether you are using it or not.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#376
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. we can trace a lot of the damage back to Citizen's United v F.E.C. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-205.ZS.html

The problem is that without Citizens United, all that kept the FEC from banning reporting on political candidates was that the law didn't extend there yet. Because what is a front-page article on a candidate if not an in-kind contribution? Why should the Wall Street Journal be allowed to run an article praising the most recent Republican candidate, if the Sierra Club can't publish a documentary condemning their polic…

There are reasonable solutions to that problem such as extending the FCCs fairness doctrine to print media, etc.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#377
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... yes? Why would PTFE "deprive cells of oxygen"? What cells? What size particles? Do you think they'd block your arteries or something? Why would that be any different than any other material? And how exactly would such particles get into your body? By injection? PTFE is chemically and biologically inert. It's well studied, and has enjoyed extensive medical use inside peoples' bodies for over half a century. I'm…

The process to ensure your cells get enough oxygen is a complex one. When you're exercising heavily certain chemical signals are sent out to ask the heart to increase blood flow to compensate for the high consumption of oxygen - similarly injuries produce stressor signals when the body is damaged and bleeding (since the lowered blood pressure decreases the efficiency of the heart's ability to deliver oxygen) - if an…

You've invented a new medical hazard, which makes no sense whatsoever. If you were to somehow introduce enough solid matter into your blood that it lowers your RBC count on a volumetric basis, then you'd have far bigger problems than oxygen transport in general. And at that point, it wouldn't matter what the material is.

And you still haven't answered the question: how do you imagine such a large amount of powdered PTFE would get into your body? PTFE can't be digested, and there's no evidence that it's passed to the blood stream though inhalation. Are you really afraid that someone's going to inject you with a specially formulated suspension of ultra-fine PTFE?

The rest of your post is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

> injuries produce stressor signals when the body is damaged and bleeding (since the lowered blood pressure decreases the efficiency of the heart's ability to deliver oxygen)

Not sure what "signals" you think you're talking about, but our compensation for traumatic hypovolemia is triggered by vascular baroreceptors, a mechanism has nothing to do with the effect of foreign particles in our blood.

> Keeping your blood clean of impurities is traditionally (mostly) handled by the kidneys, if some PTFE is introduced into the blood stream does PTFE recognize this impurity as a dilution - will it properly filter it out?

No, the kidneys do not filter out solids. That's not how they work. Your body has ways to deal with foreign particles, which vary widely depending on the nature of the material -- particle size and shape, reactivity, opsonizability, etc. None of these ways involve the kidneys in any significant way.

> I don't have any evidence to the contrary...

Nor, apparently, are you able to account for the half-century of experience we have in using PTFE inside people's bodies. Nor as well the material's track record in a huge variety of other applications. E.g., nearly every household in the first world has used PTFE-coated non-stick cookware. The fact that we have no evidence of PTFE somehow entering people's bloodstream and "diluting" their blood might clue you in to the plausibility of your theory. Or maybe not.

> ...but I am skeptical of how conclusive the supporting evidence is and would place the onus on proving harmlessness rather than harmfulness.

You can say that about anything. Literally anything.

Honestly, I know you think you're discussing a complex topic with some sort of clever reasoning, but it's only because you're missing a lot of basic knowledge of chemistry and physiology. I think I need to be done with this now.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#378
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that without Citizens United, all that kept the FEC from banning reporting on political candidates was that the law didn't extend there yet. Because what is a front-page article on a candidate if not an in-kind contribution? Why should the Wall Street Journal be allowed to run an article praising the most recent Republican candidate, if the Sierra Club can't publish a documentary condemning their polic…

There are reasonable solutions to that problem such as extending the FCCs fairness doctrine to print media, etc.

Which was also ruled unconstitutional. And probably still wouldn't fix the Sierra Club documentary issue.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#379
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Gore Tex -- and all other membrane systems -- rely on DWR to keep the face fabric from wetting out. The face fabric is only water repellent if it's finished with oil, wax, or DWR. When the finish is degraded, rain will wet out the shell and breathability plummets. There are no exceptions. If you invent a fabric that is both breathable and permanently water repellent (as in, it sheds water in beads), then I promis…

Somewhat serious question: do you think it matters if it looks absolutely silly?

Sorry, if what looks silly?

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although it's worth noting that 'as the forefathers intended' carries more weight than it typically should. Their intentions were mostly based on philosophical guess work Not to mention they're just some random people, nation building or not. No rational reason to treat their work like some higher command centuries later.

> Not to mention they're just some random people, nation building or not. No rational reason to treat their work like some higher command centuries later. We treat their work "like some higher command" because it literally is that. Their work (the Constitution) creates a framework that overrides anything enacted by contemporary legislatures. The reason that's so important is because we often (usually?) don't agree on…

>We treat their work "like some higher command" because it literally is that. Their work (the Constitution) creates a framework that overrides anything enacted by contemporary legislatures.

That's just a choice (not even a popular ie. majority choice, just a choice pre-made by how the founding fathers set up the system, nobody is actually asked about it). It could be totally abolished tomorrow like such things have been countless times in past and present societies.

It's not a natural law or god given framework. So it's in that sense that it shouldn't be treated as that.

You write: "Of course, to the extent we don't like any particular meta-rule, we could amend it with a 2/3 vote. We don't do that because we don't agree on what the alternative meta-rule should be!".

But nobody was asked whether we "do that" not. It's not that we don't do it because "we don't agree on what the alternative meta-rule should be" and thus we are fearful of doing it. It would have been that if we had voted about it, and decided so. But instead, it's not that we don't do it, but that we're not allowed to even vote on doing it or not (well, US citizens aren't allowed that is).

>but declaring that we can just decide for ourselves what the rules will be, without reference to the meta-rules, would lead to total breakdown.

I don't know about that, seems to work for other countries with no holy "founding father" dictums.

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