Information operations directed at Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#371

Post by rickycook » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

profalseidol wrote: post #329

rickycook wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, and that’s definitely a problem, but government is a bigger issue because they have the ability to force a population: corporations can only influence (we can have a different discussion about how corporations give you “choice” but not really, but i think they’re different cases, and government is clear cut)

Ain't government is comprised of corporate owners? President. Then there's lobbying/bribing. Create/participate in wars. Sell weapons to the human rights respecting Saudi. And when corporations die, they take the people's money. That's beyond giving me a choice. Lols.

i agree with you completely, but a law is far more clear cut than complex social dynamics.

the outcome is similar in either way, and both are equally bad, but one is far easier to define specific actions, and specific parties that are not acting correctly.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#372

Post by xster » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:21 AM UTC

wannaduo wrote: post #370

xster wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi-tangential, but many Chinese tech companies just have a perma-VPN company wide and use GSuite and Google search by default. And Hacker News is a tech-leading forum (though it's not that big of a thing in China AFAIK).

Actually，I work for one of the most well known Chinese Internet companies. Our company’s VPN is blocked by HN

Did you mean that HN isn't accessible through VPN? i.e. it only tunnels domains selectively?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#373

Post by 886 » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:24 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #201

yomly wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is your knowledge? China changes fast - my impression was that it was quite straightforward to go to HK. At least for people in SZ...

Shenzhen is a special economic zone, which had its own border with mainland China until early 2018. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/21...

it's not a real boarder. and regardless the so called boarder was effectively gone since early 2000s.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#374

Post by powerapple » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:30 AM UTC

woah wrote: post #152

tmux314 wrote: post #42

Good on Twitter and Facebook. On top of blocking thousands of websites (which includes Facebook, Google, Twitter) China's government employs thousands of government employees just to purge even the most mild criticism of the CCP on Weibo [1]. They also employ tens of thousands to export their propaganda overseas, using sock puppet accounts to push their worldview[2]. And their worldview is fiercely anti-democratic. T…

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

I mostly only comment on China related articles, with a pro-China view. Sometimes I find it necessary to comment because it is rare to see pro-China comment here. I am definitely not state-sponsored, I might be brainwashed in your opinion, but definitely not getting paid for those comments, and those comments are from the bottom of my heart :)

I don't really like to read political posts on Hacker News, I am mostly interested in technology, but those posts with China in their title are just a click bait for me because I knew they are probably biased.

Edit: yeah, a downvote when I am just expressing myself. you want me to shut up and leave, right?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#375

Post by 886 » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

flying_sheep wrote: post #206

mef wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically the most effective propaganda has been based partially on fact. Outright fabrication doesn't work as well as taking an accepted fact and twisting what came before or what will come after.

True. And this is getting worse because China is now rich. In old time, only brain-washed patriots believe those propaganda. But now CCP hires well-educated writers, Weibo opinion leaders to write seemingly objective articles that credit CCP exclusively with the economy growth. The middle classes in China has already believed in those propaganda faithfully because the messages match perfectly what they have experienc…

"This is getting worse because US is now poor. In old time, only patriots believe those propaganda. But now the media hires well-educated writers, YouTube opinion leaders to write seemingly objective articles that credit Trump exclusively with the economy growth. The lower classes in the US has already believed in those propaganda faithfully because the messages match perfectly what they have experienced. We need to be afraid of them. Because even if neo-nazism disappears now, they will continue to defend Trump and his beliefs."

Wondering if I am wrong? Even if I am wrong, how wrong???

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#376

Post by chrischen » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:33 AM UTC

LilBytes wrote: post #282

chrischen wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, I'm not arguing anything, so there is no straw man. Obviously it's not the only form of government, but we are told that it's the only one that's acceptable. There's no objective evaluation and consideration of any alternative political systems. You prove my point. The idea that it's the fairest and best is also subjective. A government gets its authority from the people, and if the Chinese grant authority t…

I'm not an advocate for the US Political system. Having grown up in Europe and moved to Australia. Therefore your assumptions that I'd use the US as the benchmark I set for my democratic wishes is misguided and the majority of your argument falls flat as a consequence. Democracy allows the very thing your discouraging, _choice_. Your democracy or rather the US democracy is not my own. And for the arguments you've mad…

I'm not defending Chinese dictatorship. And since you did not grow up educated in the US system like I was, I hardly see how you can claim I'm incorrect in stating that the US education system teaches us how democracy (particularly US democracy) is the best (if still flawed) system. That was my original point in my original post. I'm not sure why you are derailing it and turning this into a "me supporting China" thing. I do not support their regime (though I admit I"m also not subject to their regime so I'd have no reason to support them), but that doesn't mean that I also got brainwashed by the US education system.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#377

Post by chrischen » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

LilBytes wrote: post #364

Aeolun wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly it is an alternative to democracy. It’s existed more or less successfully for some 80 years now. The question is if it’s really a place any of us (who grew up in a democracy) would want to live. The ethos of the CCP is just fundamentally incompatible with my own worldview, even though I can admit to their effectiveness so far. I’m not really willing to accept the existence of such a country in my world either…

Yes, totalitarian dictatorships are a literal alternative to Democracy, though I feel we're nitpicking on the semantics of my words here. When I say I don't see Totalitarian Dictatorships as an alternative, I don't mean in the literal sense, I mean in the viable sense. In the literal sense, yes, it's an alternative to Democracy. As is building a house on sand is a literal but not viable alternative to building a hous…

China is not a totalitarian dictatorship.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#378

Post by powerapple » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

kmonsen wrote: post #191

dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

I think what is missing in most the the China and HN discussions is that HN is not blocked by the great firewall, so it is much easier for regular people living in China to participate. They will naturally have more pro-China views. Just like residents of every country will have more positive views of that country. And when that country is criticized they will be even more defensive and reflectively pro what is criti…

In general actually people who have access to western medias are educated enough to think differently, not to take the media's view wholly. I am sure many of them would just defend China out of pride (apply to people living in China), for others, mostly oversea Chinese, they have seen the world and concludes that is the right view to hold, and they don't have to follow western media's (CNN, BBC) view on things. I personally would not be so much pro-China if the news is not as biased as it is to be honest.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#379

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #374

woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

I mostly only comment on China related articles, with a pro-China view. Sometimes I find it necessary to comment because it is rare to see pro-China comment here. I am definitely not state-sponsored, I might be brainwashed in your opinion, but definitely not getting paid for those comments, and those comments are from the bottom of my heart :) I don't really like to read political posts on Hacker News, I am mostly in…

I have a question from you. How, as a pro-China person, do you view the Dalai Lama? Because I see a certain inconsistency that nobody can explain to me: the DL insists he doesn't care about the complete autonomy or independence [0] of Tibet, just faving a bit more freedom so that people can practice their religion and cultivate their culture. This, in my opinion, is a moderate view, and in no way a threat to the integrity of China. But somehow the Chinese freak out whenever the DL is mentioned. Why is that? If anything, I'd say the DL could help in keeping peace in Tibet. Seems absurd to me. And I'm wondering what is the official Chinese opinion about this.

[0] https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/past-is-past-tibet-not-seeki...

> "The past is past. We now have to look into the future," he said.

> "We are not seeking independence... We want to stay with China. We want more development," the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people said.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#380

Post by dang » Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:50 AM UTC

wannaduo wrote: post #370

xster wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi-tangential, but many Chinese tech companies just have a perma-VPN company wide and use GSuite and Google search by default. And Hacker News is a tech-leading forum (though it's not that big of a thing in China AFAIK).

Actually，I work for one of the most well known Chinese Internet companies. Our company’s VPN is blocked by HN

HN doesn't block VPNs. What are you observing that leads you to say that?